Hoarding is exactly what the government is doing right now by filling the SPR, and frankly it's the best thing that could happen. It drives prices up. High prices encourage demand destruction. They also finance new well development. The hoarded oil gives us a buffer to fall back on once shortages become more prevalent. High prices are what we need in order to adapt to what's coming, and the sooner they happen, the better.
Joined: Mar 29, 2008 Posts: 70 Location: Ashland,OR
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: Tesla Electric Car
Starvid wrote:
What's the problem with the Vectrix?
Lots, but basicly the folks building it didn't understand physics.
It weighs too much, for the batt it carries, poor range.
It is running BLDC, brushless DC motor, very expensive controller.
Good EFF%, but complex, costly. Very compex planitary gearing, heavy, costly.
$11k for a product worth $6k, or less
They built 2000 bikes and sold less than 200.
An example of out of touch lame CEO's more worried about the stock profile than the product. A ton of hype, with no substance.
Last edited by Vegas on Thu May 15, 2008 7:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Mar 29, 2008 Posts: 70 Location: Ashland,OR
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: Tesla Electric Car
Electric_Economy_2025 wrote:
walk into Any MC dealer ?
MC=motorcycle.
Actualy, there are some dealerships in bigger cities that sell ev scoots.
Not bloody many, like I was sayin, two-wheel ev sales are very small in the states...
The EVT ain't the only one out there, there are about a bizzilion china scooter companies making bikes, they just have a difficult time getting them to sell in the states.
Joined: Mar 29, 2008 Posts: 70 Location: Ashland,OR
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Tesla Electric Car
Electric_Economy_2025 wrote:
Vegas wrote:
I have built about a million prototypes, not so many for sale;)
I don't know how old you are but if you have built over a million PT's then you have been building about 55 protoypes a day for 365 days a year for over 50 years wow, when do you SEnS
I feel like i am 50. Naw, but I have thought about batt driven stuff alot.
Working in a different industry now, but sorta miss making wicked bikes. Pay is alot better making film industry equipment;)
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 10:53 pm Post subject: Re: Tesla Electric Car
Starvid wrote:
...
What new car sells for $12k? Sure, stuff like the Logan which is for third world countries with crappy currencies, but in a developed country you can't get a new car for under $25k.
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 11:08 pm Post subject: Re: Tesla Electric Car
Electric_Economy_2025 wrote:
.....
WTF would you even compare the metro to and small EV ?
....
you got any better ideas? What do you want me to do, compare the energy efficiency of an SUV to a small EV car? Hows that suppose to be "fair"?
Electric_Economy_2025 wrote:
.....
First off people that want and ev will spend 10 to 20 thousand for one that gets them from point A to point B
....
Please point me to an EV car company selling cars within that price range.
Electric_Economy_2025 wrote:
.....
all the other dumbasses that have a 5000 pound suv to move 200 pounds of person will either change or take public transportation.
....
they will buy smaller cars
Electric_Economy_2025 wrote:
.....
I know plenty of people that want to switch they just don't have anything to switch to, I think you will be surprized on how fast people change their habbits, but then again your a DOOMER with no hope or vision so I doubt you will see the change.
please point me too an EV car company selling a car with these specs:
1) $20,000
2) 300 mile range
3) hold 5 people total
4) freeway capable
and I will be happy to buy an EV car
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 11:17 pm Post subject: Re: Tesla Electric Car
mos6507 wrote:
yesplease wrote:
300 miles at 55mph should be doable with a large lead acid pack and the right donor vehicle.
The right donor vehicle would be a flat barge of batteries with a 90 pound weakling strapped to it.
Do you even bother reading what I post, or are you just determined to be contrary for it's own sake?
yesplease wrote:
Older/lighter significantly areomodded pickup w/ a huge pack at 55mph.
mos6507 wrote:
Oh, and going level ground as well, at 20mph.
yesplease wrote:
300 miles at 55mph should be doable
It would still be ~200-600lbs shy of the gvwr depending on model. Just because ya hate physics don't mean ya have ta take it out on others... _________________
pstarr wrote:
I regularly call on my "Mother" and her ample bosom
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 11:28 pm Post subject: Re: Tesla Electric Car
yesplease wrote:
It would still be ~200-600lbs shy of the gvwr depending on model. Just because ya hate physics don't mean ya have ta take it out on others...
Lead acid has had 100+ years in EVs and I've never heard of even an experimental vehicle going 300 miles on a single charge. If you think you can do it, put your money where your mouth is.
There is a reason almost every vehicle on the EV Album has about a 40 mile range. You quickly reach a point of diminishing returns if you weigh down your vehicle with more and more lead.
If you want long range, you have to use a better battery chemistry.
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 11:35 pm Post subject: Re: Tesla Electric Car
yesplease wrote:
A metro (2200lb EV/same aero) requires roughly 7kW at the batteries over the old EPA highway cycle (what the XFI was tested with) for 60 miles of highway range assuming a dozen t-105s.
okay there's a problem. the trojan T-105 is a 6Volt battery. so 12x6v = a 72volt system.
I assume were talking about a DC conversion here. Yes a 72v DC conversion kit can be done but it takes a 144volt system to get freeway speeds. 12 batteries at 12volt each should do the trick, but you'll take a massive reduction in range. I think it's unfair to compare a freeway capable car to one that is NOT freeway capable.
yesplease wrote:
Trojan t-105s cost ~$140/battery, probably less if we're thrifty, or more if we like paying out the nose. They'll last 500 cycles at 50% dod, longer if we don't mind capacity degradation.
These specs look about right. Personally I was thinking of an AGM battery instead. It's more $$$ but less maintenance then the flooded lead acids.
yesplease wrote:
Since city cycle requires far less average power the EPA equivalent combined range would be ~100 miles combined. Half of that is 50 miles, for ~25k miles over the life of the battery assuming we ditch them as the degrade significantly. Pack costs would be ~$1680 every ~25k miles or ~6.6cents/mile. I'm interested in seeing what assumptions you used.
I disagree with the range. but at this point it's a mute issue. Joe Sixpack is not going to replace his ICE car for an EV car that cannot go on the freeways. You'll have to choose a 12V battery and redo the calculations. It's a guarantee that you won't get ~6.6cents/mile.
12V battery = higher performance + less range
6V battery = lower performance + more range
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 12:06 am Post subject: Re: Tesla Electric Car
cube wrote:
Electric_Economy_2025 wrote:
.....
WTF would you even compare the metro to and small EV ?
....
you got any better ideas? What do you want me to do, compare the energy efficiency of an SUV to a small EV car? Hows that suppose to be "fair"?
To compare a EV with a ICE is pointless, besides we already had GM come out with a EV that would have done just fine if not great had they really wanted to sell EV's, but we all know what they did and how they did it to kill their own car, just think how far the EV1 would have been infront of everyone right now and how GM would have been in the driver seat in terms of EV's. Lets take the Volt as and example they still want to have a car with and ICE in it they are hopless and will lose to the Asian auto makers.
cube wrote:
Electric_Economy_2025 wrote:
.....
First off people that want and ev will spend 10 to 20 thousand for one that gets them from point A to point B
....
Please point me to an EV car company selling cars within that price range.
I site I gave a link to are selling their EV's at 12 to 15 thousand
cube wrote:
Electric_Economy_2025 wrote:
.....
all the other dumbasses that have a 5000 pound suv to move 200 pounds of person will either change or take public transportation.
....
they will buy smaller cars
Yes thats my point exactly they will goto smaller cars and the ones now in smaller cars will goto EV's. If you are driving a compact now and paying $4 a gallon to drive to work 40 to 60 miles around trip and can I a car that will get you there for less money you will change or go broke. something like 75% of all cars commuting for work have one person in them, you would have to be either crazy or just dumb not to look for something better.
cube wrote:
Electric_Economy_2025 wrote:
.....
I know plenty of people that want to switch they just don't have anything to switch to, I think you will be surprized on how fast people change their habbits, but then again your a DOOMER with no hope or vision so I doubt you will see the change.
please point me too an EV car company selling a car with these specs:
1) $20,000
2) 300 mile range
3) hold 5 people total
4) freeway capable
and I will be happy to buy an EV car
1) that price is already there.
2) why ? the last time I drove over 300 miles was a trip to vegas we don't need a mass produced EV right now that gets more then 150 or even 100 miles per charge. Most of the driving going on is single person 30 to 80 miles around trip commuters.
3) onces again why 5 people, EV's right now should mostly appeal only to single person commuters.
4) freeway capable so what your really saying a car that can go 65mph ? would'nt it be better to just lower the speed limit?
If people are'nt willing to change or sacrifice not only for themselfs but for their children and their follow man then I say they can either get out of the way or just put a bullet in their head and save us all some trouble.
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 12:24 am Post subject: Re: Tesla Electric Car
cube wrote:
yesplease wrote:
A metro (2200lb EV/same aero) requires roughly 7kW at the batteries over the old EPA highway cycle (what the XFI was tested with) for 60 miles of highway range assuming a dozen t-105s.
okay there's a problem. the trojan T-105 is a 6Volt battery. so 12x6v = a 72volt system.
I assume were talking about a DC conversion here. Yes a 72v DC conversion kit can be done but it takes a 144volt system to get freeway speeds.
Only direct drive AFAIK. I don't see why it couldn't be geared, although that would drop efficiency a few percent. It's what is used with gasoline engines that make poor torque off the line.
cube wrote:
yesplease wrote:
Since city cycle requires far less average power the EPA equivalent combined range would be ~100 miles combined. Half of that is 50 miles, for ~25k miles over the life of the battery assuming we ditch them as the degrade significantly. Pack costs would be ~$1680 every ~25k miles or ~6.6cents/mile. I'm interested in seeing what assumptions you used.
I disagree with the range. but at this point it's a mute issue.
How so? The power requirements, even braking every half mile, are far less during the EPA's old city cycle, something like 60% of what's required highway IIRC. In any event, I'm still interested in seeing your assumptions so we can compare data.
cube wrote:
Joe Sixpack is not going to replace his ICE car for an EV car that cannot go on the freeways. You'll have to choose a 12V battery and redo the calculations. It's a guarantee that you won't get ~6.6cents/mile.
It could with gearing, although hills with higher grades would be a problem, but that's true of all low output/high weight vehicles. That being said, 30xhs' would only be ~7.8cents/mile. The XFI is ~7.2cents/mile combined cycle, and I imagine the ~.7-1.4cents/mile (10-20cents/kwh) in electricity costs would be eaten up quickly by the increased maintenance costs of the XFI. Shoot, oil changes alone are .3-.6cents/mile depending on paying someone/DIY, smog is nearly .2cents/mile assuming 13k miles per year, and since the only similarity between upkeep costs of an EV and conventional auto below 100-200k miles would be tires at ~.3cent/mile IIRC, that's still a ~4cent/mile difference according to AAA in upkeep. Even with a pack built off of 12V batteries, the XFI is still a couple cents behind the EV in the same platform. Not counting used batteries of course. Unfortunately I can't find any used gasoline for $2-3/gallon.
cube wrote:
12V battery = higher performance + less range
6V battery = lower performance + more range
Depends on the driver really. Give it to grandma and it'll be fine. The selling point of EVs isn't performance, it's cost per mile, although that's marginal atm, only ~3-5cents/mile at most, and security against further gasoline price increases. If oil spikes to $250/bbl, all of a sudden, the trade-off between cost and power doesn't seem so bad. _________________
pstarr wrote:
I regularly call on my "Mother" and her ample bosom
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 1:14 am Post subject: Re: Tesla Electric Car
Electric_Economy_2025 wrote:
To compare a EV with a ICE is pointless,
You want to have a "serious" discussion about the feasibility of EV cars and you don't want to make comparisons like price and performance?
Electric_Economy_2025 wrote:
I site I gave a link to are selling their EV's at 12 to 15 thousand
Joe Sixpack is not going to drop $15K for something the size of a golf cart. And if by some amazing chance that people do drive something that small why bother making it electric? My gosh an ICE car that size would get 100 mpg. With efficiency like that it won't matter if oil was $300/barrel it would still be cheaper to burn gasoline.
Electric_Economy_2025 wrote:
Yes thats my point exactly they will goto smaller cars and the ones now in smaller cars will goto EV's.
I disagree. Those idiots out there who now drive SUV's will go to smaller cars. And the people who currently drive a small car will go into an even smaller car. There's no need for EV's.
Electric_Economy_2025 wrote:
1) that price is already there.
2) why ? the last time I drove over 300 miles was a trip to vegas we don't need a mass produced EV right now that gets more then 150 or even 100 miles per charge. Most of the driving going on is single person 30 to 80 miles around trip commuters.
3) onces again why 5 people, EV's right now should mostly appeal only to single person commuters.
4) freeway capable so what your really saying a car that can go 65mph ? would'nt it be better to just lower the speed limit?
If people are'nt willing to change or sacrifice not only for themselfs but for their children and their follow man then I say they can either get out of the way or just put a bullet in their head and save us all some trouble.
In that case the future will be war, and not EV cars.
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 1:35 am Post subject: Re: Tesla Electric Car
yesplease wrote:
cube wrote:
yesplease wrote:
A metro (2200lb EV/same aero) requires roughly 7kW at the batteries over the old EPA highway cycle (what the XFI was tested with) for 60 miles of highway range assuming a dozen t-105s.
okay there's a problem. the trojan T-105 is a 6Volt battery. so 12x6v = a 72volt system.
I assume were talking about a DC conversion here. Yes a 72v DC conversion kit can be done but it takes a 144volt system to get freeway speeds.
Only direct drive AFAIK. I don't see why it couldn't be geared, although that would drop efficiency a few percent. It's what is used with gasoline engines that make poor torque off the line.
What you just described is unrealistic.--->but I would be more than happy to be proved wrong if you can show me a real car with the tech specs you've just described.
talk to the_toecutter if you don't believe me....he's the most staunchest supporter of EV cars this site has ever known and he would not make such a claim and btw that's not direct drive, that's connected to the transmission.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
News
Discussions
Resources
Members
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
