I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
Joined: Dec 08, 2004 Posts: 1634 Location: Nez Perce Nation
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: Venezuela threatens war over US base plans in Colombia
Nickel wrote:
Yeah, and the Ayatollah, too.
Yes, the Ayatrollah and Iran will probably get hit hard within the year. There is a strategy at work in the background. I certainly can't know what that is or what will happen, but I would say that Iran is in the way of desired goals and some action will take place.
Seems that Chavez is just playing into the hands of the machine that will grind him up. _________________ "Modern Agriculture is the use of land to convert petroleum into food."
-- Albert Bartlett
"It will be a dark time. But for those who survive, I suspect it will be rather exciting."
-- James Lovelock
Joined: Sep 11, 2007 Posts: 375 Location: In freefall speed right down to the claws of the devil
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: Venezuela threatens war over US base plans in Colombia
Nickel wrote:
pana_burda wrote:
Emmmm ...... why not thinking instead how quickly they got rid of Noriega the very momment he turned his back to his north american handlers, on panamian drug deals???
Dude was selling drugs on behalf of Ronald Ray Gun to fund Iran-Contra. He was on the payroll of the CIA from the 60s onward. What, we're supposed to be impressed that the US disestablished a dictator they propped up to run a colony that freed itself from Spain, only to take on another imperial overlord when they caught him spying for Cuba? Yeah, that's right, it had nothing to do with drugs. He could have dumped an 18 wheeler full of coke at Hollywood and Vine and that would have been just peachy. That's the biz he was in. It's when he got sloppy about his paymasters that they took him down for "drug trafficking". That's like taking down American Airlines for interstate flight. Forgive me if I don't tremble with awe at the US rotating a slot it controlled, or applaud the duplicity of "the land of the free" working hard to rot the soul of a fellow American republic.
But getting back to the guys they don't control...
I see you still don´t get the full picture. He just didn´t play it sloppy. He thought he could fly on his own .....
I think you also need to be corrected on the origens of Panama. That country rose up from Colombian soils.
Ahhh ..... about the guys they "won´t control", I´ve got bad news for you:
Quote:
BOGOTA, Colombia (AP) - Interpol said Thursday that computer files suggesting Venezuela was arming and financing Colombian guerrillas came from a rebel camp and were not tampered with, discrediting Venezuela's assertions that Colombia faked them.
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez denounced the report as "ridiculous," saying a "show of clowns" surrounded the announcement. But the findings are sure to increase pressure on Chavez to explain his relationship with the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC.
More revelations are likely to emerge, since Interpol also turned over to Colombia 983 files it decrypted.
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 10:47 pm Post subject: Re: Venezuela threatens war over US base plans in Colombia
There are some stupid things Chavez said and says.
But he is really screwed, he cannot do anything against this military base which really threatens Venezuela.
If I compare the two presidents Uribe and Chavez, I would rather prefer Chavez than a president which close ties to drug money and paramilitary forces who killed thousand of innocent Colombian people.
In the impeachment process with the paramilitary forces he gave land to these killers. And the poor campensinos, which the paramilitary forces took the land away was given nothing back, telling the land is too valuable and now they grow fuel crops for the international markets, while Colombian children are starving.
Which country is better then - Colombia or Venezuela??
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 1:34 am Post subject: Re: Venezuela threatens war over US base plans in Colombia
the US could try to take their dirty finger out of that countries, and we will see what happens.
The Columbian society is deeply corrupted because of all the illegal money in the country. I f you work ten hours a day and your family is still hungry and then you see all these people making money with drug s or paramilitary driving up and down in new cars and living in mansions- then it is quite difficult not getting corrupt.
The drug money is managed by the US the Wall STreet, banks and the CIA. However you're right, they must not vote for a criminal president.
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1461 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 7:23 am Post subject: Re: Venezuela threatens war over US base plans in Colombia
pana_burda wrote:
I see you still don´t get the full picture. He just didn´t play it sloppy. He thought he could fly on his own .....
I haven't seen any indication yet to the contrary. And in fact, he seems to have garnered quite a few friends in South America and elsewhere.
pana_burda wrote:
I think you also need to be corrected on the origens of Panama. That country rose up from Colombian soils.
I don't need to be corrected; I know that Venezuela does not border Panama and thus could never have had it as a province. You've simply misread what I wrote.
pana_burda wrote:
BOGOTA, Colombia (AP) - Interpol said Thursday that computer files suggesting Venezuela was arming and financing Colombian guerrillas came from a rebel camp and were not tampered with, discrediting Venezuela's assertions that Colombia faked them.
And? What, it's fine for the United States to fund and arm whatever crackpot group it pleases to suit its own ends (say, like, in Cuba, Nicaragua, Honduras, Colombia, Chile...), but not for anyone else? Pardon me; it's not. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I'm not sure how you'd phrase that in Spanish, but I'm sure your grandfather would have some colourful and equally idiomatic way of saying it. Besides, I never said I thought Chavez had nothing to do with pulling strings outside his borders. I don't think there's a government on Earth that doesn't, frankly. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1461 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 7:29 am Post subject: Re: Venezuela threatens war over US base plans in Colombia
mos6507 wrote:
alokin wrote:
Which country is better then - Colombia or Venezuela??
They are both messed up, like most of latin america. And they should stop blaming the US for their own damn corruption.
Yes and no. There's a long history of blatant cronyism in Latin America; there's no denying that. But there's no denying that the United States has exploited and even encouraged that trend to its own advantage, and tended to murder or facilitate the murder of anyone who looked likely to change like, like Salvador Allende. To say they shouldn't blame the United States, at least in part, for contributing to the vicious circle of corruption in Latin America is a little like blaming the people of Bhopal for breathing in the vicinity of the Union-Carbide plant. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1461 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 7:35 am Post subject: Re: Venezuela threatens war over US base plans in Colombia
alokin wrote:
If I compare the two presidents Uribe and Chavez, I would rather prefer Chavez than a president which close ties to drug money and paramilitary forces who killed thousand of innocent Colombian people.
Yes, I agree. Chavez is a blowhard who's been told publicly to "shut up" by no less than the King of Spain, and he's deliberately provocative in a way that seems to play well to Latin sensibilities. He's a little heavy-handed for my liking, but nothing like what we've come to expect "heavy-handed" to mean in a South American context. And he's won several elections, a recall, and even a coup attempt, all by the rules, as far as I can see. That's kind of refreshing. Most of all, he seems to me genuinely interested in the advancement of the poor, in his country and beyond, and forming an economic alliance that benefits the people of South America rather than primarily the Anglosphere countries that tend to show up and walk off with all the cream, as though it were our due. There's still time for him to drop the ball and become a dictator or a drug lord or sell out to commercial interests, but so far, I haven't seen that. As far as I'm concerned, he's on the right track, and he's doing things that will benefit Latin America in both the short and long terms. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Joined: Sep 11, 2007 Posts: 375 Location: In freefall speed right down to the claws of the devil
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Venezuela threatens war over US base plans in Colombia
Quote:
There's still time for him to drop the ball and become a dictator or a drug lord or sell out to commercial interests, but so far, I haven't seen that.
Perhaps you would be expecting an official declaration, from him, to announce the switch over, right?. Then, you never will see it although the fact you wouldn´t see it, it wouldn´t make that unexistant.
Why, instead of looking for what you´ll never find just listen to the people under his boots that STILL can warn you up of his wereabouts and mid term intentions?.
Perhaps you should´d have noticed the absense of cuban people, from the very island, in MOST of this internet boards and forums. Do you think that as a coincidence, as a language problem or as a "gratious" thing, uhh?
Another thing Nickel, your quote also denotes ignorance on who the farc really are. I would recommend you to read any newspaper or magazzine, or the net yet in other, more realistic sites, and find out their nexes with systematic murders, drug producing/trafficking, extortions, kidnappings and all kind of human rights violations. And your heroe here sponsors and supports all of that ........ and getting a lot of free publicity because of that, BTW.
Now, in other less important things, when I said he could fly on his own, I was talking of Noriega and since I must assume when you said: "And in fact, he seems to have garnered quite a few friends in South America and elsewhere." ...... you ought to be talking about huguito, right?
Well, wrong again ...... he hasn´t garnered new "friends" anywere. He´s using the VENEZUELANS´ oil as a powerful magnet to attract needy/weaker governments, towards HIM, as if he OWNS that frigging oil. Quite different.
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Venezuela threatens war over US base plans in Colombia
Quote:
As far as I'm concerned, he's on the right track, and he's doing things that will benefit Latin America in both the short and long terms.
I completely disagree. I've said this a few times on other threads, no matter what level oil prices get to Chavez cannot possibly fund all his social programs as well as commit to the extremely heavy investments that the heavy oil fields will require. The whole point of briinging in foreign capital after the last nationalization was to allow the Venezuelan government to reap the benefits of hydrocarbon extraction risk free and using other peoples money. This left free cashflow to invest in infrastructure and social programs. Now, with most of the foreign capital chased out of the country, Chavez is forced to plow increasing amounts of capital back into the oil fields otherwise production will go into steep decline. His choice is slow investment in the oil fields to keep his popular vote by continuing social programs at the current level in which case he will be looking at an ever dwindling cashflow through time or slow investment in the social programs in which case he will lose popular support. This is a no win situation and the big losers will be the average Venezuelan. I would not be surprised to see a mass exodus of brain power and skilled labor from Venezuela over the next decade which will exacerbate the problem.
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1461 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Venezuela threatens war over US base plans in Colombia
pana_burda wrote:
Perhaps you would be expecting an official declaration, from him, to announce the switch over, right?. Then, you never will see it although the fact you wouldn´t see it, it wouldn´t make that unexistant.
Something like refusing to acknowledge losing a plebiscite to change the constitution or not stepping down/running again when he reaches his term limit would be, more or less, official declarations as far as I'm concerned. I haven't seen either yet; in fact, we saw just the opposite recently with regard to the former.
pana_burda wrote:
Why, instead of looking for what you´ll never find just listen to the people under his boots that STILL can warn you up of his wereabouts and mid term intentions?.
Oh, you mean the people who keep electing him by wide margins, those people? Or do you mean los rancheros blancos who, in the words of others here, don't want to share any of their wealth the "mud people"... maybe they're the ones I should be listening to, hmm?
pana_burda wrote:
Perhaps you should´d have noticed the absense of cuban people, from the very island, in MOST of this internet boards and forums. Do you think that as a coincidence, as a language problem or as a "gratious" thing, uhh?
I didn't realize Hugo Chavez was simultaneously president of Cuba as well as Venezuela. I'd actually understood Raul Castro to have that job. Lost in translation, perhaps?
pana_burda wrote:
Another thing Nickel, your quote also denotes ignorance on who the farc really are. I would recommend you to read any newspaper or magazzine, or the net yet in other, more realistic sites, and find out their nexes with systematic murders, drug producing/trafficking, extortions, kidnappings and all kind of human rights violations.
What, as opposed to the guys who are actually running Colombia on behalf of Washington at the moment, you mean? Does it matter to you that most of South America is lined up again Colombia? Do you stop to wonder why that might be? Wait, let me guess... it's the Soviet Union... they're behind it! Them damn commies'll getcha every time!
pana_burda wrote:
Well, wrong again ...... he hasn´t garnered new "friends" anywere. He´s using the VENEZUELANS´ oil as a powerful magnet to attract needy/weaker governments, towards HIM, as if he OWNS that frigging oil. Quite different.
If by "using" you mean "making it available to countries that are poor or have adversarial relationships with the United States and thus can't pay US dollars for oil, in exchange for barter", yeah, I suppose that's "using" oil. What do other countries do with their oil, their grain, their steel, their gold? That he's making it available to Cuban drivers and South American industry... these are sins? The only people who should have Venezuela's oil are wealthy Anglo-Americans?
Sorry, but Chavez is looking after the interests of his people and the people around him. That's natural and not unjust. If they play their cards right, South America -- full of vast resources but governed so badly for so long to the benefit of oligarchies and outsiders -- could really, finally fulfill its potential. I'd like to see that.
Wouldn't you? _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1461 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: Re: Venezuela threatens war over US base plans in Colombia
rockdoc123 wrote:
Quote:
As far as I'm concerned, he's on the right track, and he's doing things that will benefit Latin America in both the short and long terms.
I completely disagree. I've said this a few times on other threads, no matter what level oil prices get to Chavez cannot possibly fund all his social programs as well as commit to the extremely heavy investments that the heavy oil fields will require. The whole point of briinging in foreign capital after the last nationalization was to allow the Venezuelan government to reap the benefits of hydrocarbon extraction risk free and using other peoples money. This left free cashflow to invest in infrastructure and social programs. Now, with most of the foreign capital chased out of the country, Chavez is forced to plow increasing amounts of capital back into the oil fields otherwise production will go into steep decline. His choice is slow investment in the oil fields to keep his popular vote by continuing social programs at the current level in which case he will be looking at an ever dwindling cashflow through time or slow investment in the social programs in which case he will lose popular support. This is a no win situation and the big losers will be the average Venezuelan. I would not be surprised to see a mass exodus of brain power and skilled labor from Venezuela over the next decade which will exacerbate the problem.
He ought to be making 51-49% deals with foreign capital, I agree. After all, bringing in foreign capital is all that keeps the US afloat these days. They're financing two foreign wars, seven supercarrier fleets, and 700 bases abroad, basically on the nickel of the Chinese and Japanese. Chavez ought to be able to control the ownership of the resource and still bring in the money to make Venezuela a better place if the US could manage a shell game like that for near on forty years now.
Soon, though, it'll be a matter for another president to manage... if Chavez remains a democrat and steps aside when he reaches the term limit. Like Putin, though, I expect he'll wrangle a way to stay close to the centre of power. For my money, that will be a good thing. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Joined: Sep 11, 2007 Posts: 375 Location: In freefall speed right down to the claws of the devil
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 10:54 am Post subject: Re: Venezuela threatens war over US base plans in Colombia
Nickel:
Quote:
Sorry, but Chavez is looking after the interests of his people and the people around him.
........ well, if you mean increasing the poverty index nationwide is of the best interest for his people, then, be it.
....... or if you mean those bootlick comrads (aka=accomplices) helping him out in the looting, then, be it.
Another thing here is related to the infamous forced partnership, in the oil biz, sold abroad as "nationalisation".
Occurs to me, and at the lights of the events, the real reason behind such nationalistic project ought to be the financial bankruptcy the matrix pdvsa is undergoing but, I guess, that´s for the experts to emit opinions about.
About those considerations you have over our political reality I would love to help you out into the subject but I don´t think you would be genuinly interested by the tone of some of your expressions.
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