Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4295 Location: Graceland
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
threadbear wrote:
btu2012 wrote:
Threadbear, you were talking about human neoteny a while back and I'd ask you to expand.
I'm about to co-write an article for publication, within the next couple of months, so I'll link when it's published. I'll pm you with more details. I'd like someone to help ME expand on this, challenge what I come up with, and let me know if I'm indeed crazy as a rat trapped in a coffee tin. Interested?
PM me too! I want to play.
I hereby challenge you.
You are crazy as a rat trapped in a coffee tin. _________________
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12497 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
I think the question of the "First Cause" is an interesting one and there is really no satisfactory explanation that doesn't involve a God-like force or entity.
Unless one tries to wrap one's mind around the idea of things never "beginning" - that stuff always existed and our particular space-time continuum arose from effects of previous and future space-time continua. Why does "eternity" need to contain a God-like force or entity simply by virtue of being eternity? It need only be God-like because we don't (and possibly can't) understand it with our 4 dimensional minds. _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4295 Location: Graceland
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
BigTex wrote:
I think the question of the "First Cause" is an interesting one and there is really no satisfactory explanation that doesn't involve a God-like force or entity.
Unless one tries to wrap one's mind around the idea of things never "beginning" - that stuff always existed and our particular space-time continuum arose from effects of previous and future space-time continua. Why does "eternity" need to contain a God-like force or entity simply by virtue of being eternity? It need only be God-like because we don't (and possibly can't) understand it with our 4 dimensional minds.
Ah man, you got a 4 dimensional mind?
I think mine just has 3.
***
So you're saying that perhaps there never was a First Cause, and thus the question is misplaced?
What about the old question: "what's just beyond the universe?" _________________
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
I'm not sure what that means exactly (I'm sure you will share), but I assume it means that it is far easier to accept "B" spontaneously erupting from "A" than "A" spontaneously erupting from nothing.
I meant that you can have a theory (such as quantum mechanics) where only the probability of events is determined. In such a theory you can have a "spontaneous" event, i.e. an event which happens without an apparent cause in the strict sense. Only the probability of that happening in any given interval of time is causally determined.
An example is that of electron transitions in atoms, which are responsible for the light produced by your bulb. You can't predict when a given transition will take place, but only its probability of happening within any given interval of time.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12497 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
Ah man, you got a 4 dimensional mind?
Yes, it includes a perception of "time."
BigTex wrote:
So you're saying that perhaps there never was a First Cause, and thus the question is misplaced?
What about the old question: "what's just beyond the universe?"
The question may be misplaced about "stuff." Stuff may have always existed. Our Universe is a specific space-time continuum, which may have arisen from the interaction of eternal stuff (aka "God" or "the gods"). So "what's beyond the Universe" might be other dimensions, other space-time continua, or other materializations of eternal stuff. _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
Last edited by Ludi on Fri May 16, 2008 8:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Quote:
1. An electron, neutrino, quark or gluon ?
2. A concept ?
3. An abstract mathematical object, such as an (ideal) triangle, a hypercube (cube in more than 3 dimensions), a measure, a group or a Dedekind domain ? A manifold or algebraic variety with more than 3 dimensions ?
I've experienced all of these to a certain degree, the concept of electron was formulated based on the concept that mass could be reduced, that concept was composed of electrical impulses being fed to the brain, the brain created a mathematical object to express the electron. There you go all in one sentence. Have you experienced gloobyglotty? No, well how can you say gloobyglotty doesn't exist?
That's your argument in a nutshell.
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
greenworm wrote:
I've experienced all of these to a certain degree, the concept of electron was formulated based on the concept that mass could be reduced, that concept was composed of electrical impulses being fed to the brain, the brain created a mathematical object to express the electron. There you go all in one sentence.
What you describe is not sensory experience but subjective experience (conceptualization, inner visualization). It's an open question how these relate to impulses in the brain.
Vision master asked you a similar question before about colors, which are examples of qualia (google this word). You apparently thought that it was a sort of fortune cookies joke.
In any case you most definitely haven't touched, seen or heard an electron, so your criteria for establishing the existence of God would rule out things on whose existence the computer in front of you is based. Your ontology wouldn't be able to accommodate undergraduate physics and electrical engineering.
Existence isn't the same as availability to sensory perception. This, of course, is well understood in Husserl's phenomenology and all of philosophy.
Quote:
Have you experienced gloobyglotty? No, well how can you say gloobyglotty doesn't exist? That's your argument in a nutshell.
This vulgarity has nothing to do with my argument, and you know it.
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Quote:
Why does it trouble you so much that someone else believes in God? So what if it's irrational? If it provides wholeness to life, and it works for people who believe it, why do you care?
I think you took the narrowminded comment the wrong way. I meant it literally--you seemed to be looking at the matter in a narrow way.
Did you see the video of the lady living in her car in the open discussion? Did you? See that bothers me and when I think about a flock of people getting in their cars to go pray based on some irrational notion of God that bothers me. Why? Because those are the types of people that sent that lady to live in her car. Remember all the Christians that took the bus to go see the pope in a stadium, well, guess what, they are the sheeple minded flock that ramped up gas even more, supply/demand, right? Causality plain and simple. Nobody thinks in those terms do they? This notion of God sickens me, it has caused more wars than any other variable in history and you want to ponder it for philosophical sport. Be my guest.
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