Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:30 pm Post subject: Re: Liebig's Law & Overshoot; Why There Will Be a Die-of
eastbay wrote:
zensui, direct anger and harsh unkind words at no one.
It's not easy at first, and at certain times, but practicing metta becomes easier in time.
You are young still, of course, but by the time you're older it will be your nature at the rate you're going!!
Thanks for the advice, but I don't have anger. I'm just discussing someone else's ideas. But better leave it that way. There are fools who prefer to suffer... although I still have "arrogance" to extinguish; it sometimes slips in the "most humans are crap". I'm planning to extinguish arrogance/conceit, anxiety and ignorance in this life ^_^ _________________ anagami.net
Joined: Dec 18, 2004 Posts: 4483 Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:15 pm Post subject: Re: Liebig's Law & Overshoot; Why There Will Be a Die-of
zensui wrote:
eastbay wrote:
zensui, direct anger and harsh unkind words at no one.
It's not easy at first, and at certain times, but practicing metta becomes easier in time.
You are young still, of course, but by the time you're older it will be your nature at the rate you're going!!
Thanks for the advice, but I don't have anger. I'm just discussing someone else's ideas. But better leave it that way. There are fools who prefer to suffer... although I still have "arrogance" to extinguish; it sometimes slips in the "most humans are crap". I'm planning to extinguish arrogance/conceit, anxiety and ignorance in this life ^_^
It's tough to tell in written words only, that's for sure. Those who continue to suffer comprise the far greater numbers no doubt. Stating an opinion is quite a challenge at times... without directing enmity towards those who cherish opposing perspectives. Constant practice will carry those who choose to follow the Four Noble Truths, the Eight-fold Path, and the Five Precepts a bit closer all the time.
Personally, I'm having a tough time extinguishing my harsh words toward those who started the pointless wars against Islam. There was once a time when harsh words spewed constantly from me and I hope to see a time when I direct such words at no one. Maybe I'll start now. _________________ Got Dharma?
Joined: Apr 09, 2007 Posts: 5941 Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Liebig's Law & Overshoot; Why There Will Be a Die-of
eastbay wrote:
Personally, I'm having a tough time extinguishing my harsh words toward those who started the pointless wars against Islam.
I know what you mean. I'm still pissed at the religious nuts who think they go straight to Islamic heaven and get dozens of puncture-repairing virgins as a reward from Muhammad for blowing up innocent people.
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:32 am Post subject: Re: Liebig's Law & Overshoot; Why There Will Be a Die-of
I'm lately wondering... are we as a species so beyond hope of a rebirth that a die-off is actually preferable than surviving to continue this destruction?! Kind thoughts and intentionalities are nice and all, but it's fundamental behaviour changes we're talking about... we have craped our habitat almost beyond recognition... and we do nothing to revert this state (on a global scale). _________________ anagami.net
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: Re: Liebig's Law & Overshoot; Why There Will Be a Die-of
zensui wrote:
I'm lately wondering... are we as a species so beyond hope of a rebirth that a die-off is actually preferable than surviving to continue this destruction?! Kind thoughts and intentionalities are nice and all, but it's fundamental behaviour changes we're talking about... we have craped our habitat almost beyond recognition... and we do nothing to revert this state (on a global scale).
Not as species, but the only 10 000 years old "civilization" and the behavior conditioned by civilization as we know it is certainly beyond hope and will face die-off.
What is important to realize that the seeds of the post-industrial, post-cilivilation, post-dieoff way of life are sown today. And think seven generations ahead.
Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 5446 Location: Oklahoma
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: Re: Liebig's Law & Overshoot; Why There Will Be a Die-of
zensui wrote:
... and we do nothing to revert this state (on a global scale).
Have faith. Nature will repair it better than we ever could. Read this blog:
http://littlebloginthebigwoods.blogspot.com/
All we have to do is stop doing all this crap and LEAVE IT ALONE. Of course, if we stop doing all this crap, a lot of us will die. But that's what this thread is about.
There's no easy, feel good way out of this situation. But it will eventually pass. _________________ "Every junkie's like a setting sun..." - Neil Young
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: Re: Liebig's Law & Overshoot; Why There Will Be a Die-of
Shannymara wrote:
All we have to do is stop doing all this crap and LEAVE IT ALONE. Of course, if we stop doing all this crap, a lot of us will die.
I have a feeling that this "meme" - of acceptance - is spreading like wild fire. And with it, new sense of responsibility. The me-me-me and more of me -survivalists are a dying breed. Patience needs more practice, though.
One can only hope that the psychological crap that individuals have to go through in the process of deconstructing conditioning by the cancer like civilization gets easier bit by bit.
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Liebig's Law & Overshoot; Why There Will Be a Die-of
Jenab6 wrote:
conquest policy
What you don't yet understand that globalization means that conquest policy (aka civilization aka empire) is practically over: there is nothing left to conquer, civilization has conquered the whole globe, like a cancer at final stage just before the host dies.
Few major resource wars here and there between nation states, very possibly, as last death pangs of civilization. But the general trend with (nothing left to conquor) is not explosion but implosion. Nation states based on cancer like growth ideology will implode rather than explode, they are allready starting to do so. What will emerge from the ashes of modern nation states as center of real power (in opposition to destructive power) are permaculture ecovillages based on sharing instead of conquering.
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: Re: Liebig's Law & Overshoot; Why There Will Be a Die-of
Jenab6 wrote:
Humans obey the natural laws of ecology: expanding to fill their niches maximally, after which each subset of humanity attempts further expansion by the "takeover" method; i.e., at the expense of other groups. The humanity pot is always on boil in this sense, with the single exception of the recent past, when the drawdown method made the takeover method temporarily partially obsolete.
Simply untrue, that social darwinism has nothing to do with real evolution and anthropology and applies only to the cancer like civilization. Thre rule of thumb is that "primitive" human communities don't fill their ecological niches maximally but comfortably and self regulate their population to avoid overshoot - just like many other species do. The fact that civilized man is fatally stupid, blinded by his greed, does not mean all humans are.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12634 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 11:23 am Post subject: Re: Liebig's Law & Overshoot; Why There Will Be a Die-of
I wouldn't personally put any bets on "what will emerge" after the collapse. We simply don't know. Our best chance of survival as a species is to diversify our ways of life, not putting all our cultural eggs in one basket.
Note there is simply no way for any individual to know if their personal choice of way of life is an adaptive survival strategy; this will only reveal itself later. We can only make our best choices based on the data we have, and the options available to us. _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Liebig's Law & Overshoot; Why There Will Be a Die-of
Ludi wrote:
I wouldn't personally put any bets on "what will emerge" after the collapse. We simply don't know. Our best chance of survival as a species is to diversify our ways of life, not putting all our cultural eggs in one basket.
Note there is simply no way for any individual to know if their personal choice of way of life is an adaptive survival strategy; this will only reveal itself later. We can only make our best choices based on the data we have, and the options available to us.
I think we get easily misguided thinking there will be moment X called collapse, and time before and after the collapse. Various processes and directions take place simultaneously and PO forum is not a bad place to have a good look at what is happening around.
The "survival of our species" is not important or anymore important than that of any other species, there just happens to be great likelihood that there will be also humans sharing this Planet in the coming centuries. The question is not "to be or not to be" but how?
We are consciouss beings and it does not (or should not) take much of relearning (and delearning) to understand that healthy adaptation begins with not destroying fertile soil but adding to it, not destroying biodiversity but adding to it. Ecovillages etc. (Cuban cooperatives, cooperatives of Landless movement, burst of backyard gardening etc. are part of the larger movement) with their social and other experimentations. are just practical manifestations of that basic understanding. They are allready the seed sown in the midst of this ongoing final stage of collapse, how they will bear fruit remains to be seen.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12634 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: Liebig's Law & Overshoot; Why There Will Be a Die-of
MrBean wrote:
The "survival of our species" is not important or anymore important than that of any other species,
Humans tend to value (place importance on) humans quite a bit, especially our own offspring.
Our offspring depend on many other species to survive.
I'm not saying ecovillages aren't a just fine choice on how to live, just that there is no certain way of knowing if ecovillages are a long-term survival strategy that works.
We just don't know.
The humans who are surviving on the planet in the coming centuries might be people who live in ecovillages, or they might be the survivors of existing hunter-gatherer groups. Or they might be using some strategy we haven't thought of yet.
I suspect they will be living in a variety of ways.
(note - by "our" offspring I just mean "human offspring" not my own, because I don't have any) _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: Liebig's Law & Overshoot; Why There Will Be a Die-of
Ludi wrote:
The humans who are surviving on the planet in the coming centuries might be people who live in ecovillages, or they might be the survivors of existing hunter-gatherer groups. Or they might be using some strategy we haven't thought of yet.
I suspect they will be living in a variety of ways.
Variety of local ways. Diversity that adapts cannot be separated from localism.
I see ecovillages as attempt to relearn what hunter-gatherers-permaculturists have known for million years. And not all that we have learned from the civilization is necessarily useless. What we don't really know is what technologies are sustainable in the long run, if any beyond sticks and stones.
Joined: Sep 16, 2007 Posts: 1353 Location: Oklahoma City, USA
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Liebig's Law & Overshoot; Why There Will Be a Die-of
Ludi wrote:
I suspect they will be living in a variety of ways.
Have you ever read The Hyperion Cantos by Dan Simmons? Because what you just said really reminds me of that series.
One thing about "Western civilization" is how much pressure is put for everything to be the same. The McCivilization of the world. _________________ Conservation is conservative
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the ones most responsive to change. -- Charles Darwin
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12634 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Liebig's Law & Overshoot; Why There Will Be a Die-of
MrBean wrote:
[
Variety of local ways. Diversity that adapts cannot be separated from localism.
I see ecovillages as attempt to relearn what hunter-gatherers-permaculturists have known for million years. And not all that we have learned from the civilization is necessarily useless. What we don't really know is what technologies are sustainable in the long run, if any beyond sticks and stones.
I agree. _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
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