Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1126 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 7:39 am Post subject: Re: Is the American Era over?
jlw61 wrote:
First, let me give you a basic lesson on the US. While it may not appear like it, States still have rights. Cities have rights.
Yes, I took that course, too. In this case it amounts to quaint, face-saving hair-splitting. Let me give you a basic lesson on your country: it had a four-year-long civil war to finally decide who held the trump card, the feds or the states. The feds won. The courts began applying the precepts of the federal constitution down to the acts and statutes of the states, with Congress making that explicit in the Fourteenth Amendment. Now are you telling me that Jimmy Carter could send a fleet of choppers (alright, an ill-fated one, but still) across the land and deserts of a sovereign, foreign nation to the aid of a handful of US citizens, but that President Bush was powerless to do the same for thousands, in the country he himself administers? What you're saying is just legalese that excuses doing nothing. This man has made a career of breaking the law and flouting the Constitution... why not this time? Could it be that an over-extended US military, having sucked the National Guard out of the nation it was meant to guard, had no practical response when crisis came?
jlw61 wrote:
If you want to blame people, start with the locals, they got the government they asked for.
I think regardless of how they voted, the government every one of those people "asked for" was one that was going to do its job of protecting them and serving their interests... from the top on down. They didn't get the government they asked for, or were promised as a birthright. They got their National Guard in Baghdad instead of Bourbon Street, is what they got.
jlw61 wrote:
But here, the way things work, that comes out of tax money which is too busy studying the sex habits of cockroaches, lining politician's pockets, enriching millionaires and paving highways. Also, it's a split system. Part of the money to do this is provided by the feds (it was available) and part comes from state/local government who did not want to spend the money. Blame the city and state governments for that screw up.
This is the systemic part I was talking about. The results of it are the symptomatic indications of that system in decline. It doesn't work, and it's being funded now by China and Japan, et al. The British went through something just the same, and they didn't pull out of it until they admitted it was unsustainable and ate humble pie for a generation to rebuild themselves along more fundamental lines. The sooner the US faces up to that, the better off it will be, and the faster that will happen. For 300 million people to presume to control the universe in perpetuity is a fatal conceit.
jlw61 wrote:
The city did little and could do very little to help the poor get out of the area as they did not have enough buses.
This is why modern nations have national governments in the first place. Forty years ago, yours put men on the moon. Today, it couldn't -- wouldn't -- move its ass to put a few tens of thousands of people a couple of hundred miles inland. It's hard not to sense a diminishment in that.
jlw61 wrote:
Oh, and then, if the buses showed up, how many would have gotten onto the buses?
As the ephors of Sparta said to Philip II: "If".
jlw61 wrote:
And if nothing happened, Mayor Nagin would have been hung by his toes for spending the money.
Luckily, he can turn to everyone today and boast about the money he saved. Hey, so can the state, and so can the feds. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Joined: Sep 30, 2004 Posts: 975 Location: On one of the blades of the fan
Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: Re: Is the American Era over?
What a brutal, Hobbesian world view you have AgentR.
Some of the postings on this thread show the appalling lack of compassion towards your fellow human beings, in your own country even, which is symptomatic of a moral, as well as economic and military decline.
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1126 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 8:02 am Post subject: Re: Is the American Era over?
Cashmere wrote:
Nickel - you've mistaken me for a patriot.
The U.S. is in Iraq and Afghan to secure the oil. It's gone fabulously well.
It HAS?
(Glances over at $129/barrel oil...)
...Okay. Perhaps I DID mistake you for a patriot. Clearly, your fealty is to the oil futures you own.
Cashmere wrote:
I don't see any reason why, with the oil fields controlled, the domination can't go on another 50 years or more.
Well, because in every practical sense, you're not paying the freight for that. Effectively, China is, and Japan. I don't know about Japan; they're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place... but I don't see China paying for that much longer. Once they've sucked North America dry, the loans are going to stop and the bills are going to start. In fact, we've been seeing indications of that for the past year or two.
Cashmere wrote:
Who's going to be a threat?
What military threat was there to the Russians after the Soviet Union fell away from it? None, really... they still had the wherewithal to protect themselves from anybody else. But they'd utterly lost the ability to project power and influence in the world. Luckily, they had huge supplies of energy the rest of the world wanted, and a person willing to corral it to the benefit of the nation, not just a handful of the rich, foreign and domestic. That's why Russia's back on the world stage again.
But when China and Japan stop handing the US two billion dollars a day and change to keep the planes fueled and the ships moving and the troops fed and, Jesus, just to keep the lights on in the Capitol Building, what will you turn to? Your vast oil and gas reserves, ready for export? What will you do to pay those outstanding bills? Abrogate them and scoff that no one can touch you? Potentially... but the upshot is that foreign investment and loans will instantly evaporate, the US dollar will amount to rough, one-ply toilet paper, and you can look forward to some extremely lean decades as a "sole superpower" that can't afford to send troops across the country, let alone the oceans. Paul Craig Roberts, who was Undersecretary of the Treasury in the Reagan Administration, has even wondered out loud if the US will be able to bring its troops home from its 700 bases around the world when the crunch comes... without a little help from its friends.
Cashmere wrote:
That's always the excuse, isn't it? They're not making dumb decisions, they're just poor. As if being poor stops you from making good decisions.
Like sending the kids to college, or buying a home, or moving to Beverly Hills. No, being poor never stopped anyone from making good decisions... just acting on them.
Cashmere wrote:
It's really simple. Minimally, almost everybody who died could have evacuated to the SuperDome.
If they'd been doing that before the hurricane hit, sure. That happened in the aftermath.
Cashmere wrote:
And as is so often the case, bad things happen to people who make stupid decisions.
Indeed, we've been watching the plummeting value of your dollar and the resulting spiraling cost of oil prove just that in spades. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Last edited by Nickel on Wed May 21, 2008 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1126 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 8:15 am Post subject: Re: Is the American Era over?
AgentR wrote:
In addition; nothing the US does is "sage and graceful", its not our character, nor our history. Never has been, never will be. "big stick" anyone? Whack a problem with the stick enough.. it either gets fixed, or stops complaining.
It doesn't sound like a sustainable program for world leadership to me, particularly once capital starts flowing to other centres. $9.2 trillion dollar debt, anyone?
Man, I've only just reached middle age, but even I'm old enough to remember when the idea of a mere trillion-dollar debt was enough to give everyone in Congress bowel cramps. But the Gipper just chuckled in his aw-shucks disarming way. Twenty years later, Jesus... $9.2 trillion dollars. Talk about letting yourself go. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: Re: Is the American Era over?
Cashmere wrote:
Nickel - you've mistaken me for a patriot.
The U.S. is in Iraq and Afghan to secure the oil. It's gone fabulously well. What? 4k dead? That's a pittance compared to most plundering over the ages.
As for how long the military can keep it up . . . I don't see any reason why, with the oil fields controlled, the domination can't go on another 50 years or more.
Who's going to be a threat?
If US wants to do well, then securing oil for its own consumption will be enough, but to dominate, she needs to monopoly world oil supply, or control at least a few choking points that can block oil flow, be it a transit route, a trading platform, a trading currency, some chemical needed for refining,... etc.
Russia has already broken free, Russian oil is out of US reach, and Russia's self-sufficient.
The country that's trying to break free is China. And US needs to insert itself between China and her oil producing neighbors. Destablization effort or in other words "Color revolution" has largely failed in central Asian states. What's left is the militarily option, or direct control. US needs to push eastward from Iraq, to Iran, then central Asian states. The risk is high and it takes time.
China in the meanwhile is weaving all her Asian neighbors into one economic bloc (maybe excluding big players like India, Japan, South Korea, who are too big to be incorporated), by promoting regional corporation and integration. So if China breaks free, many of her smaller neighbors will go with her. And you will start to see countries switching sides.
When the great China economic bloc become adequately self-sustainable, the participating countries may cut their credit line to the US, their USD holding will become worthless, but they can afford the loss then.
So its understandable that the West elites are trying everything on China, from color revolution, media campaign to demonize, man-induced natural disasters..., but signs of victory are more and more elusive, as the Chinese people become increasingly aware of the West's plots and unified around the Chinese government.
US' success in world domination by controling its oil also rests on the assumption that no technology break-though in alternative, portable energy source takes place outside the West.
How do American people benefit from the American Era?
You lose your manufacturing bases, and jobs to the Chinese.
You pay for securing oil at the sources, and you still pay high oil prices at the pump.
Now you are about to lose your houses to your banks.
I hope you have found your democratic politics and market economy wonderful.
Last edited by gmin on Wed May 21, 2008 2:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1126 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: Re: Is the American Era over?
Here's an indication of the kind of thing I'm talking about. An excerpt:
Second, Burma’s generals claim their 400,000-man army, known as the "Tatmadaw," is able to provide all necessary relief. The presence of foreign aid workers would insult the army’s honor, risk undermining its unquestioned authority, and recall the era of British colonialism. Many senior Chinese officials had similar feelings. Besides, charged the Burmese, who was Washington to talk after New Orleans?
That's the kind of difference Katrina has made in the perceptions of US abilities in the eyes of the world. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Joined: Oct 06, 2006 Posts: 1196 Location: was rwwff
Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:54 am Post subject: Re: Is the American Era over?
Nickel wrote:
It doesn't sound like a sustainable program for world leadership to me, particularly once capital starts flowing to other centres. $9.2 trillion dollar debt, anyone?
Perhaps... you didn't notice the currency type indicator that you yourself typed.. $
How are dollars made? Looks to me like we owe something that costs about 10 gallons of ink, and 3 trees. We are, after all, on PO.com; the premise of which is that sooner, rather than later, this little industrial nightmare we have running right now is about to go... splat. Inflation from cranking the presses is likely to be irrelevant. _________________ Yes, we are. As we are.
And so shall we remain; Until the end.
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1126 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Is the American Era over?
AgentR wrote:
How are dollars made? Looks to me like we owe something that costs about 10 gallons of ink, and 3 trees. We are, after all, on PO.com; the premise of which is that sooner, rather than later, this little industrial nightmare we have running right now is about to go... splat. Inflation from cranking the presses is likely to be irrelevant.
Yes, but that's kind of the point. If the US weren't deficit spending to the extent it is, there'd be no need to be printing the money the Fed is to cover it. And if it weren't expanding the money supply, the value of the US dollar wouldn't be in such trouble. It's not the whole world that's doing this to this extent, it's the US. It will undoubtedly cause problems for the rest of humanity when it collapses, even if it happens slowly, but the primary sufferers are going to be in the US (and to a large extent, here in Canada). _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Joined: Oct 06, 2006 Posts: 1196 Location: was rwwff
Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject: Re: Is the American Era over?
julianj wrote:
What a brutal, Hobbesian world view you have AgentR.
Some of the postings on this thread show the appalling lack of compassion towards your fellow human beings, in your own country even, which is symptomatic of a moral, as well as economic and military decline.
I write it like I see it. I feel deeply for the suffering of those displaced by these various natural and man-made disasters. However, my feelings do not alter the reality that is there for anyone to see.
The suffering of those from N.O. does not change the fact that the location is no longer tenable and needs to be abandoned. That suffering does not change the fact that another cat 5 storm will smack the La coast, sooner or later, and finish the job started by Katrina. That suffering does not change the fact that our government and the laws that bind it, are ill suited to "fixing" New Orleans, or anything similar.
It is not the job of government to make it all better. Its your job. Its my job. Personally. Individually.
We live in a very brutal world, where starvation is used as a weapon of war, where various groupings of people are exterminated, or ignored into non-existence in order to suit the convenience and comfort of others. Joe Average American and European are isolated and protected from seeing this reality as much as possible; and for the most part, they choose to cooperate by intentionally not-knowing. The horror that people saw on TV after Katrina is but a mild, gentle echo of what routinely goes on within the human world. The only difference is that it made it on TV and the living victims could speak a western language. _________________ Yes, we are. As we are.
And so shall we remain; Until the end.
Joined: Oct 06, 2006 Posts: 1196 Location: was rwwff
Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Is the American Era over?
Nickel wrote:
Yes, but that's kind of the point. If the US weren't deficit spending to the extent it is, there'd be no need to be printing the money the Fed is to cover it. And if it weren't expanding the money supply, the value of the US dollar wouldn't be in such trouble. It's not the whole world that's doing this to this extent, it's the US. It will undoubtedly cause problems for the rest of humanity when it collapses, even if it happens slowly, but the primary sufferers are going to be in the US (and to a large extent, here in Canada).
Long before the lifetime of those notes are a problem; the printing of the money to moot them will be a non-issue.
My point here is that you've created this straw-man "image" of the US; that frankly, never existed. We have never been this icon of Serene Majesty that some have referenced. Just take a jog back in history, Iraq, Vietnam, nuking japan, Great Pyramid Scheme of Excess (aka pre-great depression), territorial aggression against all who stood in the way of "manifest destiny", Civil war. Always victory at any price.
Don't Tread on Me.
Praise God and Pass the Ammunition.
Come and Take It.
I just have no idea where you find this Past America of Unassailable Goodness. _________________ Yes, we are. As we are.
And so shall we remain; Until the end.
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1126 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: Is the American Era over?
AgentR wrote:
I just have no idea where you find this Past America of Unassailable Goodness.
Talk about straw men. I don't think anyone here ever espoused anything that naive. Certain I didn't.
But I can tell you that prior to circa 1960, the United States alone accounted for half the manufacturing done in the world. And I can tell you that the United States entered the 1980s as the greatest creditor nation in the world and left the 1980s as the greatest debtor nation in the world... a title it has only worked hard to entrench during subsequent Republican administrations (the current greatest creditor nation is that bastion of Marxist-Leninism, the People's Republic of China). And I can tell you the response to Hurricane Camille, at the height of the Vietnam War, stands in stark contrast to the response to Hurricane Katrina... and that's in spite of nearly 40 years of technological and logistical advancement in the interim. So no, we're not talking about the loss of a white knight here, but an able administrator, a resourceful provider, and an innovator to be followed. That's all been squandered and the only response to anything now is military force. Finesse and persuasion are gone. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Joined: Oct 06, 2006 Posts: 1196 Location: was rwwff
Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: Is the American Era over?
Nickel wrote:
subsequent Republican administrations (the current greatest creditor nation is that bastion of Marxist-Leninism, the People's Republic of China)
Carl Marx just rose from the grave, screamed in horrible agony, and died once again of a heart attack. China is such a hodge podge of Oligarchy, capitalism, nepotism, and socialism, that "bastion" of anything is a huge stretch of the meaning of that word. (I'm a big fan of China, btw)
I also find it funny that we always seem to want to blame the weakest piece of the budget&spending equation for the overall balance of the budget. Not a penny can be spent without the approval and explicit direction of congress.
I did like how finances worked with a democrat president and a republican congress; that seemed to be the best financial combination to date. Dem/Dem, and Rep/Rep seem to be pretty aweful; Rep/Dem not too swift either.
Quote:
And I can tell you the response to Hurricane Camille, at the height of the Vietnam War, stands in stark contrast to the response to Hurricane Katrina...
Katrina was physically a much nastier storm for a variety of reasons; the greatest of which was the much larger storm surge created by Katrina, and its the surge that created the result we all saw on TV.
Quote:
That's all been squandered and the only response to anything now is military force. Finesse and persuasion are gone.
This is the difference in our opinions... I do not believe finesse and persuasion (other than by implied threat) were ever part of the American way of doing things. Brinkmanship, greed, power, and land-lust... Thats more along the lines of reality. _________________ Yes, we are. As we are.
And so shall we remain; Until the end.
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1126 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: Is the American Era over?
AgentR wrote:
It is not the job of government to make it all better. Its your job. Its my job. Personally. Individually.
Yeah, keep saying that, loud and long. Maybe you'll convince the world they didn't see a great power in decline abandon one of its own major cities, in which it took such pride for two hundred years, celebrated and sang about. Maybe you'll convince them "I meant to do that."
Maybe. But I doubt it. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1126 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Is the American Era over?
AgentR wrote:
And I can tell you the response to Hurricane Camille, at the height of the Vietnam War, stands in stark contrast to the response to Hurricane Katrina...
I don't care if it rained snakes and marmalade and flaming fudge bags. The point is, in '69, relief was forthcoming. In '05, it came grudgingly, late, and in ineffective dribs and band-aid drabs.
AgentR wrote:
Katrina was physically a much nastier storm for a variety of reasons; the greatest of which was the much larger storm surge created by Katrina, and its the surge that created the result we all saw on TV.
Hurricane Camille came ashore in nearly the place as Katrina, with a storm surge of 24 feet. Katrina's was 27.
AgentR wrote:
This is the difference in our opinions... I do not believe finesse and persuasion (other than by implied threat) were ever part of the American way of doing things.
You don't know your history. The US grew very adept, particularly in the years after WWII, leading agendas by dint of its technological accomplishments, its overt championship of freedom (think cheering crowds to "Ich bin ein Berliner") — regardless of what it was doing behind the scenes — and the mutual advantages its economic prowess enabled it to extend to other countries. Those things needed to be built upon and honed. Instead, they were let go, largely in the Reagan era, to fund feel-good triumphalism. Bread and circuses. Rome's burning? Never mind; here's Ronny with your fiddle! It's "mourning" in America!
AgentR wrote:
Brinkmanship, greed, power, and land-lust... Thats more along the lines of reality.
It was always an element. Seems to be all that's left. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Joined: Oct 06, 2006 Posts: 1196 Location: was rwwff
Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 7:19 am Post subject: Re: Is the American Era over?
Nickel wrote:
AgentR wrote:
Katrina was physically a much nastier storm for a variety of reasons; the greatest of which was the much larger storm surge created by Katrina, and its the surge that created the result we all saw on TV.
Hurricane Camille came ashore in nearly the place as Katrina, with a storm surge of 24 feet. Katrina's was 27.
There is much more to the word "large" than height. VOLUME is what kills. Height is only a single measurement at a single position, usually a maximum value used to give scale for the record books. What destroys stuff is the volume of water over the entire zone, and Katrina was much, much worse in this regards.
Quote:
You don't know your history.
I know it just fine, we disagree on the interpretation of those events. _________________ Yes, we are. As we are.
And so shall we remain; Until the end.
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