I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
Joined: Oct 15, 2004 Posts: 2251 Location: Arkansas
Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 9:29 pm Post subject: Re: Is America going to have a Revolution?
Interesting observation Burton. How will the US, the biggest gas guzzler in the world, handle PO? Already, Congress is threatening to sue Opec to appease the masses. When that doesn't work, and which will never get off the ground, what will satisfy 300 million Americans who feel their non-negotiable way of life is being attacked by a bunch of rag head, undemocratic infidels?
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1461 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Is America going to have a Revolution?
seahorse wrote:
Already, Congress is threatening to sue Opec to appease the masses.
That's a hot one, isn't it? The US is going to sue OPEC in world courts whose jurisdiction it denies and whose rulings it ignores, but will expect OPEC to honour. Makes you wonder what Congress will do if they don't... stop buying the oil? Yeah, there'll be seven or eight tense seconds there in the OPEC capitals until the Chinese come banging on the door with the chequebooks out and the pens poised on the "Pay to the order of" line...
seahorse wrote:
When that doesn't work, and which will never get off the ground, what will satisfy 300 million Americans who feel their non-negotiable way of life is being attacked by a bunch of rag head, undemocratic infidels?
Good question. Not many F-18s can take to the sky to bomb OPEC countries without good ol' OPEC oil. It's the ultimate Catch-22. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:34 am Post subject: Re: Is America going to have a Revolution?
seahorse2 wrote:
We have digressed from the point of this thread, which is simply, are people in America getting pissed to the point of revolution? I see that you are pissed at what's going on, just like most people. So, I think that your posts are more evidence that the temperature is rising. How hot does it have to get? I don't know.
However, back on tangent:
Quote:
How, exactly, was it going to "work" for them if Bear Sterns (et al.) went broke, their investment vanished utterly, and the people whose savings were housed there went up in a puff of glorious capitalistic smoke?
Surely Bear Sterns going under hurts those investing in Bear Sterns, but saving it hurts those that were betting against them.
But, I don't want to bailout bankers for any reason, mainly political reasons. Like Jefferson said, they are the greatest threat to democracy. So the fewer the better.
Canadians aren't so much pissed as aghast. The scary thing is we have a govt that sucks up to the U.S. It won't change, federally, unless we vote in the Green party, or NDP. Democratic socialism, is what Canada was and should remain, all about.
Will there be a revolution? I think once you strip many Americans of their wealth, they'll no longer feel American and the ego adjustment won't necessarily manifest in rage. They could just go out with a whimper. Too bad. All that "We're number one" gas will evaporate as the other runs down.
Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Is America going to have a Revolution?
The liberals dont such up to the american govt as much as they go along with what helps us and what doesnt. The liberals didnt sign up for missle defense and they didnt take us into Iraq. Good enough in my books and also the only party likely to be elected with a majority govt. Canadians arent smart enough to vote green, only 15% or so it seems. Also, Ontarians werent smart enough to vote yes on the referendum that would have instituted proportional representation so said 15% of green party votes would materialise into 15% of parliament. Whats to say federally Canadians wont be equally stupid
Joined: May 24, 2008 Posts: 128 Location: Park County, Wyoming
Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: Re: Is America going to have a Revolution?
My son and I were jawing the other day about the idea that so many of the Big Brother powers assumed by the federal government (even pre-dating 911), appear to be anticipating massive domestic upheaval as opposed to outside attacks.
Going back to the early 1990's, the feds had already started pre-positioning supplies and equipment specifically earmarked for use in instances of widespread civil disorder.
Here is an extract of a Rand Corporation study... Rand Study "Further, it should be noted that it is very common throughout the states to find National Guard Military Police are members of
local, county, or state law enforcement agencies as their civilian employment. Since most states do not wish to remove these members from their law enforcement positions, state proclamations activating the National Guard for state active duty often exclude members that are in civil law enforcement and firefighting positions.
Hence, use of National Guard Military Police in state civil disturbances may often be counterproductive to the objective. Lastly, as a general practice, many states do not allow their National Guard members to perform arrests but, due to the rules of evidence and custody, use civil law designated for and assigned to civil disturbance tasks. However, experience data and interviews with several Adjutants General do not support structuring special units with civil disturbance capabilities or additional units of existing types, such as military police, to perform this specific state mission. In fact, most of the Adjutants General whom we interviewed preferred to use standard combat units, such as infantry, armor, or field artillery, in this role.
There are two Civil Disturbance Equipment (CDE) storage sites to support the National Guard in these missions. These equipment storage sites are regionally located near C-130 transport airfields in low-threat areas; the one for the eastern states, at Indiantown Gap, Pennsylvania, and the other for the western states, Guernsey, Wyoming. The sites provide stockage of common CDE items such as helmets with faceguards, protective body armor, weapon lock plates, and rations in the form of ready to eat meals that can be drawn and distributed on short notice to support units trained and employed in civil disturbances."
Keep US troops in Iraq for 100 years.. as Grandpa McBush mentioned? Maybe having the US military garrisoned overseas, ala French Foreign Legion isn't such a bad idea after all. Course, that still leaves the militarized Poe-Lease people don't it? _________________ Be yourself... Everyone else is already taken.
Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Is America going to have a Revolution?
Could it be a better way to have a virtual revolution, one of enhanced learning, sharing, technoligical achievement and brotherhood? As opposed to violence?
The right kind of leaders could stitch together the emotions and weld together a cohesive and united nation putting old and new technologies to work to reduce oil dependance.
Say, as JFK roused the masses to support the moon landing program, back 47 years ago. Many thought he was overoptimistic, but what he started got finished.
I think we should all stop and pray for peaceful ends to the peak oil situation and see the problems as opportunites to do greater good.
Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: Is America going to have a Revolution?
The more difficult question is which will come first, Revolution or World War?
Much more than just oil, the economic policies in general followed by our country over the last 30 years have placed the global economy at great risk at the moment. Neo-colonialist wars fought for the possesion of oil, along with deregulation of the capital markets has bankrupted our economy, and at some point here besides not being able to afford to drive our cars we won't be buying the products the Chinese have built factories to supply American consumers, putting lots of Chinese out of work. Then the Capital that Americans here invested in the supposedly growing Chinese economy won't be returning much on its investment, will it?
On both sides of the Pacific, you will have out of work Chinese with starving children, and out of work Americans with starving children. Blame will be passed around in government propaganda on both sides, and at some point somebody is going to invade somebody else. If it goes thermonuclear, kiss off life as we know it on the planet, and all the survivalists can kiss off their plans for home generation of electricity. If it doesn't go thermonuclear and stays conventional, neither are you going to do a very good job of defending your subsistence farm against 4 Billion hungry Chinese with your Colt 45 and Winchester Rifle.
Its not if, but when. It won't take until the oil actually dries up though. There is enough pressure right now on the markets to see it coming down the pipe in as little as 5 years. More likely 10 to 15, but its pretty hard to see how we are gonna work out of the hole we dug ourselves into without a LOT of pain, revolution, war, whatever.
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1461 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Is America going to have a Revolution?
RogueEconomist wrote:
we won't be buying the products the Chinese have built factories to supply American consumers, putting lots of Chinese out of work.
I'm not convinced this is going to happen. China's been sucking the marrow out of the West for thirty years now. The standard of living has grown there immensely. They've drawn off our manufacturing base and our technological know-how with it. They're certainly licking off the cream. When it's done, well... there are 1.2 billion of them, or thereabouts. If 300 million Americans buy, say, 50% less from China than they used to -- a drop so huge as to be unlikely -- it would hardly be impossible for 1.2 billion Chinese to take up a good deal of that slack themselves, if not all of it. Even if it's spread more thinly, disposable income's still disposable income, and frankly, I think we're kidding ourselves if we really believe China's plan is to keep shoveling we princes of the Occident cheap goodies forever. I think they're only going to do that as long as the returns are favourable compared to domestic consumption. I think we're nearing the tipping point, and pretty soon, they're going to start eating their own cake rather than giving it to us for pennies a ton. There'll unquestionable be disruptions when that happens, but I really do believe China's planning for it. The crown's due to be passed, and we've got to face up to that. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: Re: Is America going to have a Revolution?
I don't think there will be a revolution as we have come to know them but it will happen slowly and before we know it, it will be too late.
-There are many factors that will contribute to this, not the least of which being the reconquista of Aztlan. If you don't know what i'm talking about go to www.enemiesforeignanddomestic.com or just google Aztlan.
-There is also the Islamic fundamentalist factor. I served a tour in Baghdad and if I only learned one thing, it is that these people want to come here and cut our throats just because our value system and way of life doesn't match their own. The islamic threat is real and if you think it's not, or that it has been exaggerated you are greatly mistaken. If anything, this threat is being downplayed and underestimated.
-Another factor is what this site is dedicated to. As oil prices continue to rise based on demand from China and India, the price of everything else will contiue to rise. As that happens, the dollar will continue to fall ( the price of gold being the best indicator of what is happening to the dollar), and since oil prices are based on the dollar, the dollar falling will keep making the price of oil go up. The process is cyclic and will not stop until the whole system implodes in on itself.
-Two more factors to keep in mind are the emergence of China as a super power and the fact that global population is increasing exponentially. While these factors are not one in the same, I chose to group them because they are related. First of all, if you view the world in terms of a zero sum game then it is understood that China gaining power means that we are giving up power in some way. IE. China's demand for oil making Americans pay more at the pump or the fact that our economy is suffering and China's is booming because everything we buy is made in China. Now the exponential population growth is a little trickier. As it continues to grow, more and more people will be living closer and closer together with less and less resources and in some parts of the world less water and food. In nature this leads to a cull. In human beings in order for a culture to sustain its way of life that culture must also 'cull', which would come in the form of genocide. Now we as Americans, being freedom loving idealists, could never fathom such a thing. But China could, so could any number of arab countries. So when you talk about revolution in the U.S. or the U.S. collapsing it should be taken into account that it would leave a power vaccuum to be filled by a country who could give a damn about human rights or for that matter any truths that we hold to be self evident.
These are only the four factors that i consider the main factors that will contribute to our downfall. There are others such as a rampant drug problem, erosion of American values and the belief in right and wrong, and a complacent and apathetic population. Keep in mind that none of these factors apply as a single threat, but will all intertwine to lead to the downfall of the U.S.
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1461 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Is America going to have a Revolution?
Itsallcomindown wrote:
I served a tour in Baghdad and if I only learned one thing, it is that these people want to come here and cut our throats just because our value system and way of life doesn't match their own.
Actually, I think they're more likely to want to do that because guys like YOU really ARE going over THERE and cutting THEIR throats just because THEIR value system and way of life don't match YOUR own. We've been stealing from these people, making compliant local warlords their "kings", toppling their governments as it suited us, putting the "oomph" behind brutal military regimes, and carving them up into competing nation-states for a century or more, and all so we could take the oil and leaving them picking the dates. Frankly, I think the fact that we like to see Hollywood starlets in bikinis or people sometimes swear on TV here are really the least of their concerns. But hey, you were over there actually sticking guns in their faces... maybe you've got a better bead on what upsets them when they're not wetting themselves in mortal terror than I do.
Itsallcomindown wrote:
In human beings in order for a culture to sustain its way of life that culture must also 'cull', which would come in the form of genocide. Now we as Americans, being freedom loving idealists, could never fathom such a thing. But China could, so could any number of arab countries.
Oh, hell... SURE you could! It's just that you prefer to do it in China (no longer feasible), or any any number of Arab countries (currently underway). Among others, of course.
Itsallcomindown wrote:
So when you talk about revolution in the U.S. or the U.S. collapsing it should be taken into account that it would leave a power vacuum to be filled by a country who could give a damn about human rights
That would certainly make a nice change. Or did you mean "couldn't give a damn"? Because that's what we're hoping to replace.
Itsallcomindown wrote:
There are others such as ...erosion of American values and the belief in right and wrong, and a complacent and apathetic population.
You got that right. That's why you were Baghdad. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: Is America going to have a Revolution?
Our National Guard is in Iraq Our boys in blue are on the take Just who do you think is going to "round up" the people lol Theyll have to hire the RCMP from Canada lol and they dont want to be here either
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Is America going to have a Revolution?
A revolution will take more than just farmers and trailer park rednecks.... A revolution will split the army into two sides.
Do you really think during a revolution the army/national guard/police are going to keep in line?
I have friends in all three mentioned above, they are all citizens as well, they are taxed the same as everyone else, pay the same for gas, have the same problems with the government as everyone else. For some it is just a career path with good benefits. It doesnt mean they will have unfaltering loyalty when the SHTF.
Without members of the army/ national guard that have been trained to use force, there will not be a revolution... It will just be another riot, or maybe that is how it will start.
If the army is not split in half over an issue I can almost guarantee whoever the army/ national guard sides with will win.
Still I believe that it will take a strong enough issue that splits the powers in half to create an effective revolution.
But then again anything could happen.... So long as we are playing the what if game. _________________ Tired of high gas prices? Then stop driving to work, duh..... Learn to Work from home
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The US is going to sue OPEC in world courts whose jurisdiction it denies and whose rulings it ignores, but will expect OPEC to honour. Makes you wonder what Congress will do if they don't... stop buying the oil? Yeah, there'll be seven or eight tense seconds there in the OPEC capitals until the Chinese come banging on the door with the chequebooks out and the pens poised on the "Pay to the order of" line...
Then stop driving to work, duh..... 
