I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:03 am Post subject: [Alcohol 2] Alcohol as fuel
I read an article stating that Henry Ford build a car that is powered by alcohol. Because of the petroleum companies, he has to redesign the car to use fossil fuel.
Question:
1. Why don't we switch to alcohol as a fuel after the peak oil?
2. Why is Henry Ford follows what the petroleum companies does? if he does not follow, then we would not have rely to middle east!
3. Is it hard to make alcohol?
I ain't using it as fuel!! I will drink it all!! Just watch me. FUEL SMUEL! Who needs it? My Polish ancestors lived off vodka. That is how you survive when you have nothing!
Joined: May 17, 2004 Posts: 1969 Location: Democratic People's Republic of Washington
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 4:18 am Post subject:
1. It would work, but only on a very limited basis only. There does not exist enough arable land on earth to fuel the global fleet of over 700 million private vehicles, provide food for everybody currently alive, and also house the population. Doing this on a limited basis would be possible.
2. He caved into the oil companies primarily because of two reasons, the prospect of becoming rich, and also the abundance of the refined fuels. Why manufacture the fuel required to propel your vehicle, when you can just pump it out of the ground for near free? Also, if there was not "financial incentive" (bribes), to do so, Henry Ford would have likely declined to change the fuel that the engines were fueled by.
3. Not at all. All you need is sugar, yeast, and an air-tight container, (a large Gatorade bottle works good for this), to make the brine. Add .5 cup of pure white sugar, and 1 TSP of yeast to 2 quarts of water. Now cap off the mixture so it is air tight, and set it in the sun. for the rest of the day. After the sun sets, place the brew near a warm, (but not hot) source of heat. Once per day, let out the excess air (which is CO2), by opening the lid and letting out the gasses. The brine will be ready in a period of 2 weeks if it is exposed to continual warmth.
It does not take very much warmth, and the distillation process creates heat by itself, as it is an exothermic reaction. After the brine is ready, you will need to create a distillery. All you will need for this is a one gallon jar, and 5 feet of surgical tubing. The extra volume will allow for the air to expand, and force out the alcohol. First, poke a hole in the center of the lid of the 1 gallon jar so the surgical tubing can fit in it easily. Extend the length of the surgical tubing 1 inch below the bottom of the jar lid, and seal the tubing with caulking. After the caulk has sealed, it will now be air tight, and water tight. Make sure there are no gaps in the seal around the surgical tubing.
After your distiller is ready, transfer the contents of your fermenter to your distiller. After you have done this, cap off the surgical tubing so no vapor escapes. Now place the jar over a heat source, and get the brine to a rolling boil. The alcohol will boil off first, which is why you need to cap off the end of the surgical tubing that is free. Next, run the surgical tubing through a cold source such as an ice pack . Make sure there is plenty of room left at the end to place it into a jar to collect the alcohol. After you have the tubing routed through the source of cold, and have the end placed in another jar, (at a lower altitude), about 2 quarts in size to capture the alcohol than the source of the heat, wait for the alcohol to boil off, and collect it in the cooled off jar. After the boiling has stopped, the contents of the second jar will be pure alcohol. Just turn off the source of heat, and re-cap the surgical tubing.
Let the distiller cool to room temperature. After it is cooled off, just add more yeast and water, and the reaction will be started again. Repeat process until your alcohol is to the desired amount. The brine can be reused for about 3 months before needing to start from fresh again. Congratulations, now you know how to make moonshine _________________ Here Lies the United States Of America.
I believe alcohol is an energy sink. It takes more effort to grow the crops and make the alcohol than you actually get from the alcohol! Any solution has to be energy positive.
I believe alcohol is an energy sink. It takes more effort to grow the crops and make the alcohol than you actually get from the alcohol! Any solution has to be energy positive.
Net energy! What a concept!
Perhaps currently but there are efforts to increase the feasability of doing this and there are other sources of biomass than what we traditionally use now that can be explored.
Everything is a net energy sink. If you grow a plant, part of the energy you get is from the sun. True, you don't get 100% of the available energy, but what energy you do get is "free"...just like getting oil out of the ground.
Of course, it's land intensive, and must be harvested, all of which costs money. That doesn't mean it's economical or even feasible in the amounts of energy we need. But to not want to use it b/c it's an "energy sink" is nonsensical.
Joined: May 26, 2004 Posts: 309 Location: Ontario, Canada
Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Alcohol as fuel
grungerock wrote:
Question:
1. Why don't we switch to alcohol as a fuel after the peak oil?
2. Why is Henry Ford follows what the petroleum companies does? if he does not follow, then we would not have rely to middle east!
3. Is it hard to make alcohol?
For 2, what happened was petroleum was able to get in place and made widely available at cheap prices before we could start an alcohol economy. So we just started using that, and now it's too hard for whiny car companies to change.
I finished reading a book on a methanol economy this weekend; I'll make a more detailed thread after I look a thing or two up and have the book in front of me. _________________ "Our forces are now closer to the center of Baghdad than most American commuters are to their downtown office."
--Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, April 2003
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6976 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 11:58 am Post subject:
Certainly alcohol on a commercial scale could be problematic. On a personal level things are different.
Take one acre and plant it to Sweet Sorghum, a little hand work to keep you in shape on the end of a hoe and you can get maybe 100 bushels of grain for flour and fodder, I don’t know how much fodder in the form of leaves stripped off the stalks, say 400 gallons of molasses by pressing the stalks and you still have the crushed stalks to return as mulch.
Take the molasses, ferment and distill it and you should come up with a respectable amount of alcohol.
Sorghum requires much less input and water than corn, although the birds really like it.
Now you know where to get the sugar for k's recipe. Granted it won’t work in Manhattan. [shrug]
Info from “Small Scale Grain Raising” by Gene Logsdon, Rodale Press. _________________ Make a plan and work it:
But to not want to use it b/c it's an "energy sink" is nonsensical.
In most cases, it will be way better to just drink/sell it.
For example- You plant, cultivate, protect from pests, harvest, process, and distill enough plants to make 5 gallons of alcohol. The amount of work you put into that 5 gallon crock of alcohol will far exceed the fuel benefits. Remember you need practically pure (160 proof+) alcohol for fuel, so you will likely need a fractional still.
Are you gonna dump that into your hummer so you can drive 40 miles?
Are you gonna use it to run your chainsaw and put up wood?
Are you gonna use it to run your tractor to plant your next crop?
NO NO NO. Because its gonna be too valuable to use for fuel (work), because work (manpower) will be practically free.
Intoxication on the other hand may be priceless ...
As a rough example, because Ive never collected actual data, lets say that one Manday (one grown man laboring for 10 hours) will get the equivalent work done of one quart of alcohol as fuel.
In post peak times, one Manday is gonna be worth a few meals and a safe/warm place to sleep, or less. A quart of fuel grade alcohol will be considerably more valuable than that.
Anyways, my point is that alcohol as an energy source WILL be a sink for most applications as the cost of manpower drops.
One exception would be a 100mpg scooter, possibly modified for rails. Would allow you to travel quickly if you needed to badly enough.
"Brown's Alcohol Motor Fuel Cookbook" is a great start for anyone interested in gaining practical experience in this. It has a ton of history, diagrams, and instructions for modifying engines and building different size production rigs. _________________ "The future power is manpower"
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6976 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 2:43 pm Post subject:
According to this paper from Purdue, ethanol yield per acre could be as high as 400 gals and probably 150 could be easy. Don’t forget, unlike corn, the sugar is in the stalk, not the seeds - considering you also get to keep the grain, leaves and pulp, the syrup is basically free - only inputs for the alcohol itself are power for the press and heat for the still.
If a manday is only worth a quart of hooch, and it takes say 2 weeks to get only 100 gallons, then I’m ahead by 96 gallons plus 100 bushels of grain and several tons of fodder! I don’t know who’ll be cutting my wood and cranking the press - but it won’t be me!
Don’t know if it can fuel the world, but it can defiantly fuel my tractor, plus some good rations for the cow and chickens, some strong bread flour for me and maybe a touch left over for a nightcap.
The way I see your situation Pops is that you are considering using biomass (sorghum and wood) and manpower to make ethanol.
So its more of a concentrated carrier of energy than an energy source. IMO, theres no point in using that specialized energy unless there's no other way to do the work (like traveling 80 miles in 3 hours on a powered bicycle).
In the future, manpower will be cheap and fuel will be valuable. Quite the reverse of today, where fuel is cheap and manpower is pricey.
I tend to think that the risk and investment limits the net gain of the ethanol process. Obviously, experience will improve results.
How well you fine-tune the process will ultimately determine whether it pays off. I certainly wish you and me and anyone else who attempts to create firewater the best of luck. _________________ "The future power is manpower"
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6976 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 7:09 pm Post subject:
Dang! Bill Gates foils my eloquent argument again!
Why doesn’t this machine know what I mean and not what I type!
Anyway MS, is there a chink in the 96% (granted, it is theoretical) return?
Even if I don’t have an IC engine on the place, I have around 400 days of free labor at a quart a day for one acre planted. _________________ Make a plan and work it:
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