Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:09 am Post subject: Re: High Fuel Costs Threaten Bankruptcy for Truckers
drew wrote:
I completely agree. Hybrids only shine in start/stop environments, not running down the highway. A big diesel hybrid would need prohibitively expensive regenerative braking to offset the enormous demands on the drive train when accelerating. In addition really big (marine) diesels approach 50% thermal efficiency, and truck engines cant be too too far from that (lots of drive train losses, I know). A hybrid will have the same frictional losses, so I can't see what would be gained in all honesty.
Thanks for the input Drew, it's always nice to hear from somebody who's inside the industry.
wisconsin_cur wrote:
This might be a regional thing. Around here there are a lot of truck drivers so there are a lot more people related to truck drivers. it is not so much a theoretical loss as a personal one. Do you want uncle Sven to loose his job or have to take a pay cut (because now there are too many truck drivers)?
Every region is different. For example if you started talking about water resources you'll get some very fierce debates out here in sunny California where as someone in Michigan (longest freshwater shoreline in the world) will just shrug their shoulders. However in general I do not think truck drivers or the industry in general carry much political weight. Furthermore it is not an industry concentrated into a single state so this can be a huge disadvantage politically speaking.
For example Iowa produces more corn then any other state.
Therefore any politician (congressman or house of representative) coming out of Iowa is by default pro-agriculture and pro-ethanol subsidies. Any politician coming out of Michigan would be pro-union and pro-auto industry.
Yes truck drivers are human and they have feelings too, but Most people get this image of a big beefy 200 lb man whenever the word "truck driver" is mentioned. Unless he's your uncle or somehow related it's going to be mighty hard for truck drivers to try and pull on the general publics' "heartstrings", and besides there's a lot of competition for public sympathy these days with the economy in the toilet.
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: Re: High Fuel Costs Threaten Bankruptcy for Truckers
I think government should legislate against competition for public sympathy by passing non-tariff barriers, and ring fencing strategic groups vital to the nation's security from out of state or foreign competition. Why should a factory worker in Michigan have to compete for sympathy with a trucker in Georgia who's costs are lower? Much less an undocumented alien from Canada who is selling illegal softwood lumber under the table in Oregon? _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: High Fuel Costs Threaten Bankruptcy for Truckers
MrBill wrote:
On the other hand, in urban areas there is nothing wrong with electric powered trains using stationary sources of power. At least in the initial stages of post peak oil depletion it will be cost and a shortage of liquid fuels versus late stage oil depletion when there may be shortages of available energy.
Little off subject, but what about this. At the side of my house is the electrified London-Glasgow UK west coast railway line. All long distance passenger trains are electric, local trains diesel (they continue onto non-electric tracks). However nearly all freight trains diesel hauled - they were electric hauled until a couple of years ago. Now were the electric locos worn out - NO, we've just overhauled them & sold them (cheaply) to Romania !!!!.
Economics of the madhouse.
Gasmon _________________ Constantus excrementia et level variatum
Were allways in the sh|t, its only the depth that varies
Is it my imagination or is it highly fashionable these days to turn to the government (hat in hand) for help?
I guess everybody has given up on libertarianism?
Lets hope everybody doesn't do this. *points to MrBill's signature*
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 2:09 am Post subject: Re: High Fuel Costs Threaten Bankruptcy for Truckers
People are such idiots and unwilling and unable to look at reality. It just isn't econonmically viable to ship something 3,000 miles via truck, its too expensive with current fuel costs.
Someone once said that all systems tend to resist change and move try to move back to equilibrium. These truckers are one example.
The world is changing we as a society/not just truckers need to change with it. With oil prices being what they are we really need to expand rail capacity.
Unfortunately this won't happen we're much too close to collapse.
This article reminds me of China. Everytime I go to China I'm amazed at all the beautiful new asphalt that they've laid and what a waste all that asphalt is compared to rail transport.
Some countries have done things differently but I think most countries and societies have completely screwed up their transportation and infrastructure systems by being too reliant on trucks and cars.
We made a bad choice as a society and now its coming back to haunt us. At least traffic won't be a problem.
Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 4377 Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:18 am Post subject: Re: High Fuel Costs Threaten Bankruptcy for Truckers
Quote:
People are such idiots and unwilling and unable to look at reality. It just isn't econonmically viable to ship something 3,000 miles via truck, its too expensive with current fuel costs.
For lot's of stuff, we have no other alternative right now.
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:54 am Post subject: Re: High Fuel Costs Threaten Bankruptcy for Truckers
Trains are the way of the FUTURE (and the past!) for passenger and freight. Reviving old rails is doable. Heck, maybe we could even have a "trails to rails" program? We'd have to shove six or seven walkers off the trails before restoring the rail lines, but that wouldn't be too difficult.
Imagine what our rail system would look like (could look like) if we took the $14 billion annual subsidy we currently throw at the airlines and instead, subsidize development of rail lines and train travel.
I don't think we're going to be hiding in the mountains and eating twigs and berries and shooting our dinner for a few years yet, but I do believe that there's going to be economic upheaval as prices spiral upwards. If the first casualty of rising fuel prices is that domestic airline travel virtually ceases and rail travel increases, then I'd have to say, "what's the bad news?"
I've been a frequent flyer for many, many years. And I still hate everything about flying.
Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 4377 Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:58 am Post subject: Re: High Fuel Costs Threaten Bankruptcy for Truckers
hope_full wrote:
Trains are the way of the FUTURE (and the past!) for passenger and freight. Reviving old rails is doable. Heck, maybe we could even have a "trails to rails" program? We'd have to shove six or seven walkers off the trails before restoring the rail lines, but that wouldn't be too difficult.
Imagine what our rail system would look like (could look like) if we took the $14 billion annual subsidy we currently throw at the airlines and instead, subsidize development of rail lines and train travel.
I don't think we're going to be hiding in the mountains and eating twigs and berries and shooting our dinner for a few years yet, but I do believe that there's going to be economic upheaval as prices spiral upwards. If the first casualty of rising fuel prices is that domestic airline travel virtually ceases and rail travel increases, then I'd have to say, "what's the bad news?"
I've been a frequent flyer for many, many years. And I still hate everything about flying.
Joined: Sep 08, 2005 Posts: 750 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: Re: High Fuel Costs Threaten Bankruptcy for Truckers
hope_full wrote:
Trains are the way of the FUTURE (and the past!) for passenger and freight. Reviving old rails is doable. Heck, maybe we could even have a "trails to rails" program? We'd have to shove six or seven walkers off the trails before restoring the rail lines, but that wouldn't be too difficult.
Imagine what our rail system would look like (could look like) if we took the $14 billion annual subsidy we currently throw at the airlines and instead, subsidize development of rail lines and train travel.
I don't think we're going to be hiding in the mountains and eating twigs and berries and shooting our dinner for a few years yet, but I do believe that there's going to be economic upheaval as prices spiral upwards. If the first casualty of rising fuel prices is that domestic airline travel virtually ceases and rail travel increases, then I'd have to say, "what's the bad news?"
I've been a frequent flyer for many, many years. And I still hate everything about flying.
Bring back the &^%$ trains.
HF
Big round of applause for this one. Ever since I was a wee ankle-biter, I was a big fan of trains...indeed some of my earliest forms of artistic expression was drawing trains...hehe.
We need to stop building new roads NOW and shift that money to building an entirely new high-speed rail system, Interstate-style. There should be duel high-speed lines for passenger rail, plus another set of duel rail lines for freight, and these would span the entire country, north/south, east/west, just like how the Interstate Highway system was conceived so long ago. Min speed for passenger rail should be 300 mph, with 150 mph for freight rail, and 100% of the electrical power for these need to come from fast-tracked nuclear power plants built in every state.
I don't care if we have to put $5 tax on every gallon of gas to pay for this...it just needs to get done at all costs, as quickly as possible. _________________ Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide...
...and the meek shall inherit the Earth!
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: High Fuel Costs Threaten Bankruptcy for Truckers
Quote:
Trains are the way of the FUTURE (and the past!) for passenger and freight. Reviving old rails is doable. Heck, maybe we could even have a "trails to rails" program? We'd have to shove six or seven walkers off the trails before restoring the rail lines, but that wouldn't be too difficult.
If trains are the future at least we know what happens if we don't drastically expand rail transport: we simply won't have one. Well at least not a very pleasant one.
Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 1:37 am Post subject: Re: High Fuel Costs Threaten Bankruptcy for Truckers
Byron100 wrote:
Big round of applause for this one. Ever since I was a wee ankle-biter, I was a big fan of trains...indeed some of my earliest forms of artistic expression was drawing trains...hehe.
We need to stop building new roads NOW and shift that money to building an entirely new high-speed rail system, Interstate-style. There should be duel high-speed lines for passenger rail, plus another set of duel rail lines for freight, and these would span the entire country, north/south, east/west, just like how the Interstate Highway system was conceived so long ago. Min speed for passenger rail should be 300 mph, with 150 mph for freight rail, and 100% of the electrical power for these need to come from fast-tracked nuclear power plants built in every state.
I don't care if we have to put $5 tax on every gallon of gas to pay for this...it just needs to get done at all costs, as quickly as possible.
I obviously applaud your enthusiasm, but electrified rail in many parts of the country is not economical. Diesel-electric trains would be better in sparsely populated areas or those regions that have less traffic. The nuclear power you suggested can be used to generate bio-fuels or hydrogen and/or diesel-electrics can run on coal to liquids. Trains are so much more energy efficient than trucks for long-distance hauling that the fuel used can be justified. The problem with throwing all your reources - tax dollars - at one specific problem is that you then ignore all others at the same time. Five year plans and Great Leaps Forward often have large, unintended consequences. _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Joined: Sep 29, 2004 Posts: 2330 Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:26 am Post subject: Re: High Fuel Costs Threaten Bankruptcy for Truckers
Trains rule.
I used to work with a guy who had previously worked for Conrail in their Philadelphia headquarters. He knew the shipping business inside and out and used to complain about the unfair advantage that the trucking industry had over rail. The costs for rail transit are divided between "above rail" and "below rail." He said that the above rail costs were very good for rail vs trucking, but the below rail costs killed it. The below rail costs include everything involved in maintaining the rail road the trains ride on. The trucking industry doesn't have that. Sure, they pay higher tolls and taxes, but that is a small fraction of the cost of maintaining the highways they ride on. The cost of building and maintaining highways is coincidentally about 10 times the cost of building and maintaining rail ways. When you look at the real costs of long haul trucking, it is far more expensive, as a whole, than rail freight.
Rail freight has a fuel efficiency of about 341 BTU per short ton mile. A tractor trailer is 3,357 BTU per short ton mile. In other words, rail freight uses 1/10 the fuel to haul the same stuff. I think that the writing is on the wall. Short haul trucking still makes sense, long haul doesn't anymore. For a long time, when we had cheap fuel, truckers had a big advantage in their use of government subsidized highways. Not anymore, rail wins out. Older parts of the US such as the Northeast, are still laid out using rail freight for long haul. In fact, it's the standard way of getting freight in and out of NYC because the highway system is a nightmare. Norfolk Southern bought Conrail for just that purpose.
A good place to live post peak is anywhere close to rail distribution centers. _________________ "That's the problem with mercy, kid... It just ain't professional" - Fast Eddie, The Color of Money
Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:37 am Post subject: Re: High Fuel Costs Threaten Bankruptcy for Truckers
Excellent stuff, KingCoal! Railheads, ports and places where there are stationary sources of power (preferably renewables) are located. Be there or be, umm, out of luck! _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
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