Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: Planning for my daughter
This is planning concerning for my daughter in a post PO world. If this is not the correct forum for this type of discussion please move it.
My daughter is a 17 junior in high school. Honors student in mathematics and science. She wants to be a chemistry major in college. If we are not at post peak oil in a global sense, then I think we will soon be. If we use a slow decline model economically, what particular type of chemistry studies should she concentrate her efforts? Here are some choices.
Organic chemistry
Physical chemistry
Nuclear chemistry
Bio-chemistry
Chemical Engineering
My initial thoughts were chemical engineering but now I'm thinking that large chemical plants might be dinosaurs since they depend so much on cheap oil. What type of chemical processes or research become important in a steadily declining oil supply?
Last edited by Cog on Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:18 am; edited 1 time in total
The nuclear industry is almost certain to expand greatly over the next few years. They are already talking about shortages of skilled engineers, operators and probably chemists as well.
Chemical engineering would also be useful for oil sands, oil shale and coal to liquid industries.
Whether I'd want my daughter working in any of them is another matter.
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Planning for my daughter
If she wants to study chemistry, let her get started.
By the time she has to make up her mind between the options, she will be old enough to make her own decision. _________________ Nature is complete because it does not serve itself.
The sage places himself after and finds himself before,
Ignores his desire and finds himself content.
He is complete because he does not serve himself. -Lao Tze
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:19 am Post subject: Re: Planning for my daughter
Hello, Cog:
Good work on the Daughter. Seems pretty bright.
I have two girls as well, a little older than yours. In addition to the brain, I suggest working on the brawn. Suggest that she get into some sort of outdoor physical activity (example: track). In addition to getting her more healthy, it will improve her socialization, and teach her what a good workout is, which is useful in and of itself for weight control later on in life.
If not track, a lot of the high schools in my area have outdoors clubs (hiking, camping, etc). If you are concerned about this from a reproductive standpoint, don't be. Kids nowadays are a lot different than in our era, and most of these outdoors type kids are fairly harmless.
An intelligent, well rounded person, with a chemistry degree and some camping skills will do fine in life, no matter what happens. Also, if there is such a thing as a shooting range nearby, take her, and teach her how to use firearms. This is also a useful skill, that may at some point come in handy.
If you are getting the idea that I think you should treat her just as you would a young man, you are exactly right.
Joined: Jan 16, 2005 Posts: 318 Location: Delft, Netherlands
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:31 am Post subject: Re: Planning for my daughter
pup55 wrote:
I have two girls as well, a little older than yours. In addition to the brain, I suggest working on the brawn.
I also have two girls, aged 21 months and 1 month.
Exact science aptitude is very important, but also important is business and organisational skills. A student develops those well enough initially by applying for a job in some of the university student organisations or fraternities. They are usually chronically understaffed anyway. Is also good on the CV.
Scientifically minded persons should take care to not fall into the trap of neglected 'people skills', (like I have in the past ...)
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Planning for my daughter
My first degree was Mechanical Engineering. Based on the majors you mentioned, all chemistry based, I would bet there is almost no difference in them for the first two years. Just let her look them all over and choose classes wisely and she probably will not have to pick a major until she is about to be a Junior.
EVERYONE NEEDS TO TAKE THE INTRODUCTORY FINANCE CLASS SOMEWHERE ALONG THE WAY SO THAT THEY UNDERSTAND HOW MONEY WORKS!!!!!
I can't shout that loud enough. Einstein said that compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe, that is doubly true when it is working against you.
To really help your daughter, and I have one too, let me recommend that you and she read three books and talk about them.
1. The Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey
2. 48 Days to the Work You Love by Dan Miller
3. Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill
3a. Your Magic Power to be Rich by Napoleon Hill
(Three Books in one, including Think and Grow Rich)
Amazon.com has a good deal currently on 3a, since 3a actually has three books in it, its a fantastic deal. I have a Ph.D. in Business among other things and I recommend to everyone that they read those three books. Reading them with your daughter and discussing them together would be a great exercise in father/daughter bonding.
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: Re: Planning for my daughter
Cog, this is pretty much all good sound advice. But I believe that after the first few years in any profession you need management skills as much or more that technical skills. In any field, as you progress, you must manage the organization, people, money, things, and time. I have seen gifted people stall for lack of management skills. _________________ HOLDING THE CENTER
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:54 am Post subject: Re: Planning for my daughter
I recieved my BS in chemistry, and an MS in Chemistry with a focus on organic.
For Organic and Physical chemisty: I am not certain, most schools only offer a Chemistry major. There was just one or two electives you can take extra for specialization in areas like Organic and Physical chemistry. You typcially don't start specializing until grad school when you can get research under your belt. Most chemists that graduate with only a BS go into analytical work, as most Organic or Physical chemist positions require advanced education and research experience.
I can tell you that most chemists that focused on organic chemistry went into pharmaceutical r and d, and right now the market is pretty poor. Compitition from India, China/Asia, and Russia offer dirt cheap labor. Plus our food stocks are all petrochemicals. But knowing the transformations and reactions could be a valueable skill even in a low energy future.
P-chemists (at least the ones that I know) focus on a lot of computational research. The Physical acctually implies a lot of physics as in advanced math. Most P-Chemists I know are heavy computer jockey's.
I am not sure where one would obtain a Nuclear chemistry degree. It would most likely be tied to a physics major. But don't quote me.
As an undergrad Bio-chemistry has been up and coming. Not every school offers this choice. For Schools that do not offer it, and options would be to make your own by getting a Biology BS (focus your electives on celluar biology) and Chemistry BS (focus your electives on organic and Bio-Chem if they offer it). Bio-Chem is very enzyme and cell heavy. You focus more on the enzymes that assist chemical reactions in the body more than the acctual chemicals themselves.
Chemical Engineering: I am not sure how the market is on this, as I do not know many chemical engineers. On average in industry a chemical engineer prolly makes 10-15 K more a year than any other chemist in the list (with the possible exception of a Nuclear chemist), but in a low energy future this may not be the case. Many engineering programs do allow the subject focus at the undergrad level. Her course load would be physics heavy the first couple years, and organic light.
Joined: May 20, 2008 Posts: 719 Location: I have a whole ward
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Planning for my daughter
With any of those degrees....Her future will be so bright, she will need to wear shades! Mix in a business minor so she will have a feel for the profit side of the equation and it will give her options to move into management if she so desires!! _________________ Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.
Joined: Apr 08, 2006 Posts: 1340 Location: Somewhere there
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Planning for my daughter
overall, chemistry is pretty marginal occupation, with a few exceptions such as chemical engineering and alike. Same goes to biology, astronomy, history , you name it. Most people couldnt care less about your knowledge. For example I know a couple of physiologists who know how human body works better than any physician will ever do; I also have met a few physicians whose biological ignorance ( directly related to their speciality) was mortifying (most likely, literally). However, first ones will never get any money for their health-related advise, and second ones are getting it non-stop.
There are very few people (if any ) who will pay you for a lecture about, say, Cadmium, but there are plenty who would pay you to fix their teeth or something.
Joined: Jan 03, 2005 Posts: 1185 Location: western Wisconsin
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Planning for my daughter
Make sure she has some real world experience--maybe intern for an organic market gardener for a summer, somewhere along the line. Do something outside the academic world. I see a lot of college students that aren't really after an education, but preparation for a job/career, and don't have a clue how "real" people live and work.
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Planning for my daughter
Pretorian wrote:
just marry her off cog. Find her a good family-oriented guy with good genes ( to save on healthcare@burial expences in the future) and marry her off.
I had a good laugh on this one. What do you think a fair bride price is in gallons of gasoline or pounds of wheat?
For all the rest, particularly pdj2, thanks for your insights. Since I only become PO aware in the last two weeks, I'm trying to absorb a lot of information and more importantly look at future implications for my family. Before I came here, I prepared for cataclysmic events. Those had a lower probability of occurring, then the certainty of running out of oil. That has caused me to make some major adjustment in my prepping thinking.
I've discussed PO with the daughter and she gets the theory of it. She has never had to face hardships growing up that have been discussed on this board. I only have a glimmer of those myself from conversations with my father and grandfather. If there is a slow decline in our way of life instead of a sudden one, I want her positioned to use her head to do something useful to her survival and that of whatever remains of our society.
By the way the daughter is a crack shot and has been shooting with me since she was about 6.
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