Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: May 21, 2008 Posts: 86 Location: Edmonton, tar-berta
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: 6,000,000,000 die-off
allenwrench wrote:
But one thing is for sure...we Americans are pussies when it comes to roughing it. We die off quick. I suggest Americans, especially the spoiled kids start on toughness training to suck up some of the wussiness.
The kids of today have not had the experience you have had and are bankrupt with such abilities of adaptation. They will have to adapt to the new world quickly or die when TEOTWAK arrives.
And it also goes for the old, that may have trouble with change, so it is not just a young persons dis-ease.
Well said, (same goes for Canadians). Very well said.
When I look at the people around me, I don't think they know where fruits and vegtables even come from. The well off will be able to delay their own die-off for a bit. But once the food dries up, they are either going to kill each other for food, or just sit by and complain and then die.
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: 6,000,000,000 die-off
allenwrench wrote:
But one thing is for sure...we Americans are pussies when it comes to roughing it.....
You might be but dont throw me under the bus with you! _________________ Tired of high gas prices? Then stop driving to work, duh..... Learn to Work from home
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4338 Location: Graceland
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: 6,000,000,000 die-off
Rage wrote:
I'm not suggesting that forum users need to answer every single question but that this site serves as a resource for people to develop intellectual rigor by posing questions and having them answered by some of the more learned and well studied members - either by a direct answer or a link to one. I dislike the term "noob" more then anything else - not the suggestion of further reading to enhance ones understanding of a subject. Why create a division.... excuse me for posting off topic.
How do germ theory and FF use offset? If germ theory was developed apart from ff use, what would the planets carrying capacity be? Is it reasonable to even consider enhanced medical knowledge without ff? How much of that carrying capacity has been damaged by ff use and environmental damage?
One thing to keep in mind when thinking about sustainable carrying capacity is the notion of "least abundant necessity." It's sort of like a chain and its weakest link, but it's important to remember that it only takes one crisis in a necessity to dramatically alter carrying capacity. Sometimes the least abundant necessity problem can pop up in unexpected places, like bees dying and not being able to pollinate crops. Other examples could be potable water shortages, diseases against which there is no resistance, either in food plants, humans or livestock, environmental sinks for our waste, arable land, etc.
There is no doubt that the ecosystem is robust and will recover from almost any damage we do to it, but nature might need the earth to lie fallow for thousands of years to cleanse it of the fecal matter of civilization, and obviously our timelines are much shorter than that and such a scenario would be a complete disaster for humanity. _________________
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: 6,000,000,000 die-off
newbonic wrote:
In France and central Europe last year ago there were 1000s of heat related deaths during a massive heatwave: mostly the old. Take away aircon and it will be even worse.
I was in Paris in 2002 when they had thousands of elderly people die from an extended heat wave. The heat was not bad at all compared to what we get in Socal each summer. The insidious thing is that heat stroke and dehydration are the sneakiest of killers. For many victims by the time they realize somethings wrong they are beyond help.
I agree that we really do take our AC for granted, especially in the sun belt.
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: 6,000,000,000 die-off
truecougarblue wrote:
I agree that we really do take our AC for granted, especially in the sun belt.
Without AC, I bet people migrate in herds from Phoenix and Las Vegas just as fast as they migrated there..... They better not come here _________________ Tired of high gas prices? Then stop driving to work, duh..... Learn to Work from home
Joined: Jun 13, 2007 Posts: 3910 Location: Minniesotuh
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: 6,000,000,000 die-off
Interesting. I am watching a History Channel program, Modern Marvels: Fertilizer. One of the first statements made was that there would be 2 billion people in the world who would not survive without the benefits of fertilizer. _________________ "RRrrruuuunnnn!!!" ~Apocalypto
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: 6,000,000,000 die-off
Ferretlover wrote:
Interesting. I am watching a History Channel program, Modern Marvels: Fertilizer. One of the first statements made was that there would be 2 billion people in the world who would not survive without the benefits of fertilizer.
Wow! Still I wonder what the effects of Aquaponics will have, I mean fish produce Nitrite, it is converted to Nitrate while passing through a biofilter, then the plants absorb the nitrate(Key ingredient in fertilizer)
It will enable me to increase my growing production by 20% and it will take up less space than conventional gardening. I cant wait to finish my system _________________ Tired of high gas prices? Then stop driving to work, duh..... Learn to Work from home
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:20 pm Post subject: Re: 6,000,000,000 die-off
The American former middle class is going to have the farthest to fall, and no skills that will be useful when they get there. It's gonna be weird. What's a former truck driver going to do? Retail clerk? Sociology professor?
Also, whoever is rambling on about noobs, why don't you work on the Wiki so we can have someplace to link to in helping them get their feet under them.
Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: 6,000,000,000 die-off
Cashmere wrote:
What the OP and Hope-ful both are missing is this: The population of the world was stable at about 1 billion prior to fossil fuels. The growth of the extra 5.5 billion did not just happen to coincide with FF discovery and use. The extra 5.5 billion were brought into existence because of the discovery and exploitation of FF.
Sure, peasants in China and India are living a primitive, basic lifestyle. But the fact that they are living at all is because the rice they eat is fertilized, pesticized, and grown will FF. Take away that FF input, and they no longer can afford rice.
This point is clear as day and indisputable. Population growth has tracked FF use growth. And it will continue to do so on the downside.
I'll buy that for a dollar. I would say it won't get down to 1 billion but the planet can't sustain it's current population without FF.
Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: 6,000,000,000 die-off
Ludi wrote:
ProudFossil wrote:
That does not sound like extinction to me. Please explain.
I'm not convinced anyone is claiming human extinction, except possibly as a result of runaway global warming or asteroid collision, etc. Certainly not because of peak oil! We've had endless debates on here about the sustainable human population. Some think it is as low as 1 billion, possibly even less. Nobody knows for sure. But it's extremely unlikely the Earth can sustain a population of 6 billion+ without plentiful fossil fuels.
I think, in the past you was claiming that permaculture could make a trick...
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13191 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: 6,000,000,000 die-off
EnergyUnlimited wrote:
I think, in the past you was claiming that permaculture could make a trick...
I'm not sure I understand that sentence. I don't recall making any claims, if I did, I have since very clearly renounced any such claims I may have made. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: 6,000,000,000 die-off
I'm interested in the potential populationin the US, post-peak, so I did a quick Google, and found:
1863--34 mil
1890--63 mil
2008--300 mil
By the start of the CivilWar, we had coal-fired steam up and going, but not oil to speak of. I chose 1890 as a rough precedent of what this country could support without oil, seeing that time as a bit low perhaps, but that allows for the deforestation and other damage we have done since then. So, a die back to that level would not surprise me, post-oil, and could conceivably be sustainable if we quit making so many mistakes. But that assumes a lot, including a return to an approximate lifestyle of the 1890's. Nah. It can't be that easy or clean. We'll screw it up. We always do. _________________ Local fix-it guy..
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4338 Location: Graceland
Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: 6,000,000,000 die-off
The discovery of the germ theory and fossil fuels within a few decades of each other (coal before and oil after) was sort of like dropping TWO sugar cubes in the petri dish.
The discovery of the New World and its rapid exploitation was sort of like adding a second petri dish to the experiment.
The second sugar cube and the second petri dish have distorted the experiment a little. I don't think we will find any more petri dishes, though. _________________
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 4590 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: 6,000,000,000 die-off
BigTex wrote:
The second sugar cube and the second petri dish have distorted the experiment a little. I don't think we will find any more petri dishes, though.
If only we had warp drive. I have to say, one of the things I hate the most about peak oil is not being able to enjoy science fiction anymore. It's hard to watch utopian futures like Star Trek without being painfully reminded that we aren't going to get there. They are all fantasies now.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4338 Location: Graceland
Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: 6,000,000,000 die-off
mos6507 wrote:
BigTex wrote:
The second sugar cube and the second petri dish have distorted the experiment a little. I don't think we will find any more petri dishes, though.
If only we had warp drive. I have to say, one of the things I hate the most about peak oil is not being able to enjoy science fiction anymore. It's hard to watch utopian futures like Star Trek without being painfully reminded that we aren't going to get there. They are all fantasies now.
I agree with you. It's also sad to realize that manned spaceflight probably hit its peak almost 40 years ago with the first Moon mission (even though Roccman doesn't believe it really happened). _________________
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Then stop driving to work, duh..... 
