Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject: I want a homestead, wife wants noah's ark.
I'm trying to plan a homestead for my immediate family, but my wife keeps assuming that this includes her parents as well. Of course, including her parents means including her sister. And of course, including her sister means including her sister's husband... and so on and so on.
Intuitively, I see the cascade - She doesn't... I have a bit of luxury in knowing my extended family can take care of themselves - there are fewer of them and they are better off, and more self-reliant. Bless her, she just wants to do the best for her family - but to my mind, it makes this task unworkable and puts my immediate family at risk.
I've been superficially agreeable, in order to put off the discussion, but now she wants our homestead to be close to a city so her family can reach it easier. Yikes. There is clearly a large gap in our understandings.
I'm hesitant to broach the issue, lest she become uncooperative - Her buy-in is essential to success. I've been keeping my reservations to myself, until I could figure out how to talk to her about this... but I'm still at a loss for words.
If anyone has advice, I'd really love to hear it.
hermit
Last edited by hermit on Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1425 Location: Appalachian Foothills of Virginia
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: I want a homestead, wife wants noah's ark.
Are her family capable of pulling their own weight? Are they going to do so from the start, not just show up when the homestead is established? If you work out roles for them, and they can come out and do the work, then the more the merrier (depending on how well you get along with them).There's a lot of weeding and harvesting to be done, and you are aware of how much land you plan to plant (per person?). Is her dad handy with tools, or knowledgeable about the skills you need? Can her mother kill, pluck, and cook a chicken? Etc.... _________________ http://www.carfree.com http://ecoplan.org/carshare/cs_index.htm http://www.velomobile.de/GB/Advantages/advantages.html
Chance favors the prepared mind. -- Louis Pasteur
He that lives upon hope will die fasting. --Benjamin Franklin
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject: Re: I want a homestead, wife wants noah's ark.
Agree with her wholeheartedly. Just make sure it's your job to contact everyone when it's time for them to bug out to your place. _________________ There will come a day when we would have wished to do a little evil for a greater good.
Joined: Apr 08, 2008 Posts: 10 Location: grand rapids
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: I want a homestead, wife wants noah's ark.
my 2 cents would be that unless you can't get along long term with her side, why not have homesteads close to each other. That way your wife would feel ok about having the ability of looking out for them. If her family is on board with the current energy situation than it could work out well for your extended family to pool resources and work loads- I.E. everyone growing different staple crops and sharing the harvest, sharing tools, sharing knowledge, etc. Now on the other hand if they are ignoring what peak oil and ever declining energy means, I would have to agree with you that it would be difficult to try and store enough food, garden, retro fit your home, and take care of many people unwilling or unable to put in the hard work necessary. I am dealing with similar situations myself. Some of my immediate family will not do anything to prepare, and that bothers me. But on the other hand some in my family are making HUGE life changes to prepare. I guess all I can do is spend my time and energy with the people who understand wtf is going on and want to help make a life worth living.
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: I want a homestead, wife wants noah's ark.
To respond to the posts to date:
Her family are Peakoil Unaware.. They are focused on day to day challenges, and it would be difficult to get them to buy into some "far off conspiracy theory". It's all we can do to nudge them towards some basic emergency preparedness.
Bringing them on board up front is really not an option. My wife and I have agreed to prepare in secret.... Unfortunately, if TSHTF, and we selectively invite her family members as she's suggesting, it will inevitably cascade into her whole clan wanting to come to the freehold. I don't really think they have the resources or buy-in necessary to make them contributing participants at this point.
I'm not entirely closed to the possibility of perhaps brining along a few family members if we have to at some later point, but I'm really wary of "planning it in", as we simply can't afford to plan to support a commune, plus more participants means more cascade...
For me, it's about my immediate family. I want to have a frank discussion with her, but don't want to turn her against this effort.
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:51 pm Post subject: Re: I want a homestead, wife wants noah's ark.
Most of my family is obsessed with helping useless people, bunch of religious fundy's too. Not the hardcore type but why make big preparation when go will bring armageddon before things get too bad, or will supply what they need. I'm trying to learn to be self sufficient but I suspect that if I survive it will not be with my family.
The worst case scenerio I see is a dictatorship taking over and their military of thugs rounding up everyone to work in forced labor camps to make food,cut trees, etc for him and his cronies. One major source of income in Canada would be the forests, and I'm pretty sure with forced immigration etc you could strip canada of all its forests pretty quick. In a society where everything is viewed as money I don't know if there would be anywhere to run and hide. Currently every country is destroying everything for its economy fix and despite all the current environmental laws it only keeps getting worse at an accelerating pace. Trees can be burned for energy, once the trees are gone were Fark. Mabey i'm just pessimistic but I see nothing to be hopeful about in the future.
Joined: Jun 30, 2005 Posts: 730 Location: northern California
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:53 pm Post subject: Re: I want a homestead, wife wants noah's ark.
hermit, another member of this site had a thread awhile back about some personal, family issues--not the same as yours, but hard to figure out what to do. The advice given there, by one of this persons family, may be appropriate in your case--sometimes it might be best to just let circumstance make the decision. _________________ "When men yield up the privilege of thinking, the last shadow of liberty quits the horizon."
Thomas Paine
Joined: May 07, 2008 Posts: 240 Location: Chaska, MN
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: I want a homestead, wife wants noah's ark.
Well here's all I can say.....Marriages only work with both partners participating in open, honest, conversations. Spill your guts and your heart to her and you will be surprised at her responses and reactions.
Joined: Sep 16, 2007 Posts: 1344 Location: Oklahoma City, USA
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: I want a homestead, wife wants noah's ark.
Sounds like she's scared and wants to make sure everyone will be okay. It also sounds like you need to be up front with her, and tell her your concerns. It does no good to get everyone together so they can all starve, but if she wants them there and they'd be willing to travel there and could contribute in some way then she needs to help figure out how to make it work and not just dump it on you.
I think if you laid it all out on the table, showing how much preparation will be needed (food, living space, clothing, sanitation, water, etc) she'll see what your concerns are.
First though, you need to get your feelings clear about them. If there's any hint of "G-D inlaws, I hope they die off so I don't have to live with them", she'll pick up on that and the conversation could go bad real fast.
Joined: Sep 16, 2007 Posts: 1344 Location: Oklahoma City, USA
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:12 pm Post subject: Re: I want a homestead, wife wants noah's ark.
I'm fortunate in that although my husband isn't really on board, we're in agreement on who can live with us: his parents ONLY, no one else. If anyone else shows up, we'll direct them to where they can find help, but we aren't bringing their drama into our home.
Although I doubt any of them are going to drive 1700 miles to leech off us, stranger things have happened. _________________ Conservation is conservative
"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment."
Joined: Jun 30, 2005 Posts: 730 Location: northern California
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: I want a homestead, wife wants noah's ark.
RedStateGreen wrote:
I'm fortunate in that although my husband isn't really on board, we're in agreement on who can live with us: his parents ONLY, no one else. If anyone else shows up, we'll direct them to where they can find help, but we aren't bringing their drama into our home.
Although I doubt any of them are going to drive 1700 miles to leech off us, stranger things have happened.
Reminds me of the book "Wolf and Iron", by Gordon Dickson.
"After the collapse of civilization, when the social fabric of America has come apart in bloody rags, when every man's hand is raised against another, and only the strong survive.
"Jeebee" Walther was a scientist, a student of human behavior, who saw the Collapse of the world economy coming, but could do nothing to stop it. Now he must make his way across a violent and lawless America, in search of a refuge where he can keep the spark of knowledge alive in the coming Dark Age. He could never make it on his own, but he has found a companion who can teach him how to survive on instinct and will. Jeebee has been adopted by a great Gray Wolf."
Joined: Apr 07, 2005 Posts: 225 Location: West of Chicago
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: I want a homestead, wife wants noah's ark.
my 4 cents (hey, inflation, right?)
go S L O W L Y and tread L I G H T L Y
and make no sudden moves. She can probably feel your intentions but if you swerve on her it can go bad quickly. Build your case one brick at a time one day at a time. Have a fall back position that can be her idea: why not have two homesteads close by?
Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:10 am Post subject: Re: I want a homestead, wife wants noah's ark.
I wouldn't mind too much of her family. They are surely not willing to move to the country! The only thing you could do is buying a bit more land - provided you have the money.
Or the next time you meet this family talk about PO, carefully.
Anyway, your wife seems to be very caring and I would see this as a real positive thing.But I myself would rather prefer buying something really big together and subdividing so everyone has his own.
But first they must accept PO and have the same idea of preparation.
Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:30 am Post subject: Re: I want a homestead, wife wants noah's ark.
You can't save everyone.
You can't do it all by yourself.
There is only so much room in a liferaft.
I am preparing in a manner that allows me to take care of myself. As things get tougher, I expect some people will come to me for help. This is why I keep my mouth shut about what I have for stored supplies. If I share, I go without. If they don't know what I have, I won't have to make the call on whether or not to share. For family around here I have a brother, his wife, 3 kids between them and other spouses. They are perfectly capable of preparing, I've talked with them about Peak Oil, but American Idol was on the TV so they paid attention to that instead. I expect them all to be blindsided. Will I help my brother when the time comes? You bet. His wife? sure. Her kids? I can keep them from starving to death, they have 4 parents in two homes. His kid, sure. His kid's mom? My brother's stepmother? How about my own mother up north? My kid sister and her two kids? How about dad and his wife. Her daughters? Grandchildren? My friends? My neighbors? Coworkers?
A line must be drawn. I can help out, but if I don't get help in return, I will be the one to suffer. I've helped lots of people with lots of things. I help them move furniture, they promise to help me with something but never do. I fix their front door, they say they will pay me Friday, move out of state Thursday. They borrow money, never seem to have any to pay it back, but have a new TV. They borrow a tool, promise to bring it back the next day, I go get in from them after a week, and its busted.
People ask for help and make promises. Its the same promises from different people and all too often my help ends up stinging me. What we are coming into is a new world. The help people will need is not for a tool or a few bucks, it will be for a place to live, a hot meal, a warm place to sleep.
hermit wrote:
Intuitively, I see the cascade
As soon as you do help someone out who is really in trouble, you become a potential resource for everyone you know and that person knows.
In normal situations, most people can take care of themselves, some can take care of a few, and there are a few who can't handle taking care of themselves. Put a crisis into the mix. More people will shift into dependency, placing a larger burden on those who can take care of more than just themselves.
I have limited resources. If I hand them out, I need something back or I go down. If you need a place to stay and want to stay at my place, eat my food, consume my supplies, wear out my structure, you will have an understanding that you will be working at least as hard as I do. Roccman started a thread This is a working farm...expect to be put to work. It may be of use to review it.
There will be people who show up at your door looking for help, bringing nothing with them for supplies or support. It's late in the year, the crops are in. There is enough food to get your group by until next year. Do you take in more people knowing you must support them with your stored supplies until next years crops can support them? What if something better comes along and they leave in a few months, or living with them just isnt working out. They consume your supplies, you'll never get them back. Being a nice guy means you suffer. Not just you, but the entire group. What about elders? Granny going to be able to carry her load? How about your brother's toddlers? Who you allow in and who you exclude must be considered thoroughly, well in advance of the upcoming crisis. If you are willing to let them in, you also have to store goods for them as well as yourself. If they come, it is because they have nothing and are desperate. If they were not desperate, they'd stay right where they are.
It would be much better if the people who will be allowed into your home understood the nature of the problem and did their own preps. You can talk with them, yell at them, paint signs on their car to get their attention, all to no avail. If you do get results, there are plenty of people who would like to know how you did it. No, they will show up empty handed with you as their only hope.
What happens when you let someone in? Simply put, you just solved all their problems, they are back in a world of plenty. When they set out to seek help from you, did they talk to other people? Will those other people come, knowing you were able to help someone already? Once the word gets out that you have supplies, the cascade is set in motion.
What happens if you must turn someone away? A close friend, someone you've worked with for years, the guy who lived next door for the last 10 years. Enter: resentment. They know you have something, they just need a little. What can they do to retaliate for your denial? Steal your crops? Raid your chicken coop in the middle of the night? Come back with guns? Inform the authorities that you are hoarding? Blackmail? "Give me 5 pounds of rice or I'll tell the world." You can bet they'll be back when the 5 pounds runs out.
Cascade prevention is a subject that needs to be considered. You've tried talking to people about the problem to get them to gather supplies. It would be prudent that they understand that you will not be able to help them if they can't take care of themselves. It is cold, hard, painful, no fun whatsover, but what else can you do? Is this a problem for which there is no technical solution? I'd try to figure it out, but as I have not gone through a societal collapse, I have no experience to draw from.
In the end, you have to be able to take care of yourself first. Only then can you consider adding on someone else, one at a time, on a case by case basis. When you reach the point you can't take in anyone else, don't even open the door when they knock. _________________ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--for ever."
-George Orwell, 1984
Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:45 am Post subject: Re: I want a homestead, wife wants noah's ark.
I disagree. You won't be able to protect yourself against hungry hoards. You must do community gardening now. You must do guerilla gardening now (edibles).
They will even send police around to look what edibles people do store. There will be rationing cards. and your community must supply the rest.
This community may be a bigger family circle, but they all must contribute, you have not the means to feed them. There might be good gardeners amongst them but others can repair tools for example.
I myself have problems to talk with people about PO, when they're talking about their kids the next birthday party and so on.
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