Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: Aug 18, 2005 Posts: 532 Location: Belgium, Europe
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: Re: Airline Bankruptcy/Merger Thread
shortonoil wrote:
misterno said:
Quote:
But why are they cutting flights and keep the flights cheaper than cost?
Does anyone understand this stupidness?
They do it because their fixed overhead means that it is the smallest loss that they can incur. Losing traffic would cost them even more money. Their choice now is to lose a lot of money, or lose a little bit less.
What they are now doing is like trying to swim with an anvil tied around their neck!
perhaps they're anticipating a decline in oil prices _________________ www.peakoil.be
Joined: Sep 08, 2005 Posts: 792 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Airline Bankruptcy/Merger Thread
Can anyone make a guess as to when the government will start issuing massive "bailout" packages for the airlines to keep them alive at least a little bit longer?
My call is for spring of next year, although it could come as early as this fall if oil prices continue to climb. _________________ Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide...
...and the meek shall inherit the Earth!
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Airline Bankruptcy/Merger Thread
Byron100 wrote:
Can anyone make a guess as to when the government will start issuing massive "bailout" packages for the airlines to keep them alive at least a little bit longer?
My call is for spring of next year, although it could come as early as this fall if oil prices continue to climb.
I hope not. The last $15 billion only lasted them 7 years... _________________ "It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: Airline Bankruptcy/Merger Thread
emersonbiggins said:
Quote:
I hope not. The last $15 billion only lasted them 7 years...
With the size of losses they are now incurring, $15 billion won’t last them seven months! High speed air travel will very soon be a thing of the past, gratis PO.
Joined: Sep 16, 2004 Posts: 4933 Location: Southwest WI
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Airline Bankruptcy/Merger Thread
Small charter that i've flown on before:
Quote:
Sun Country seeks $50M in state aid to cope with oil prices
Airline officials outlined the company's condition for more than a dozen legislators. By EMMA L. CAREW, Star Tribune
In yet another sign of turbulence in the airline industry, Sun Country is in preliminary stages of requesting as much as $50 million in aid from the Minnesota Legislature and the Metropolitan Airports Commission.
Sun Country hosted a dozen members of the state Senate's Business, Industry and Jobs Committee, including Chairman James Metzen, DFL-South St. Paul, at its Mendota Heights headquarters Wednesday. Sun Country President and CEO Stan Gadek presided over the meeting, which 60 Sun Country employees also attended.
"We believe that we have self-helped to the greatest extent that we can," Gadek said in an interview, referring to recent job reductions and pay cuts for top executives. "We're not looking for a handout ... we're looking for some help here in the interim."
Metzen said that the estimated need is about $25 million a year over the next two years
... then what?
Quote:
, and that the funds could possibly come in the form of a loan guarantee.
"We were receptive to try and help in some fashion," he said. "It's not unusual for the state to help out in some of these instances."
Most airlines are already in crisis mode in response to oil prices that have more than doubled in the past year. All major airlines have been raising fares and fees, scaling back routes once the summer travel season ends and slashing planes from their fleets.
But in contrast to oil, Gadek noted that average ticket prices at Sun Country have only gone up about 17 percent.
The Sun Country team outlined the carrier's economic impact on the state: about $225 million in annual consumer savings as a result of lower airfares, and more than $40 million in employee salaries, Gadek said.
And despite Sun Country's dismal financial performance -- it lost $43 million on operating revenue of $243 million in its most recent four quarters -- the company says it isn't on the brink of bankruptcy.
This company is as doomed as the rest of them... Start looking for new jobs.
For what i know, the state of MN can not afford to loan them anything.
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: Airline Bankruptcy/Merger Thread
$250 million to keep it cheap and enticing for Minnesotans to go to Cabo or Puerto Vallarta instead of just "out at the lake" in-state, while the state is undoubtedly spending millions on trying to attract those ever-dreamed-about tourist dollars? Right... _________________ At 1% annual growth, human bodies will incorporate every gram in the observable universe in approximately 10,170 years.
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:08 am Post subject: Re: Airline Bankruptcy/Merger Thread
Virgina, end of June and I am getting up in the middle of the night to find a blanket. Not recently typical weather for this area. The demise of the airline industry may put most of this global warming topic, so beloved by the media, to bed.
It is getting cooler, a lot cooler, and this all started about six months ago as commercial aircraft began flying slower and lower. They are not now ejecting so much of their particular exhaust into the stratosphere to produce cirrus clouds, which warm the earth.
May, 2008
Compare last fall: with this spring:
NOAA maps
Go to the bottom of the page and click year and period, chose Fall(Sept-Nov) ‘07, and
Spring(Mar-May) ’08.
The climate has changed dramatically. This happened at the same time the airlines started getting into serious trouble and began slowing down and cutting their routes.
Quote:
NASA scientists have that found cirrus clouds, formed by contrails from aircraft engine exhaust, are capable of increasing average surface temperatures enough to account for a warming trend in the United States that occurred between 1975 and 1994.
"This result shows the increased cirrus coverage, attributable to air traffic, could account for nearly all of the warming observed over the United States for nearly 20 years starting in 1975,
When NASA first published their study in 2000 (which I can not now find) they stated at that time that their research indicated that most of the global warming we were then seeing was the result of the effects of commercial airline exhaust. I guess it was not politically correct to produce such findings, and the media mainly ignored it. Apparently, so did most of the scientific world.
It has been a beautiful spring, I have not yet this year used the air conditioning. The bugs are tolerable for a change and the sky is bluer. If they park a few thousand more planes, life will most likely improve. It is good to have at least one positive aspect of PO; cool, crisp mornings.
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Airline Bankruptcy/Merger Thread
shortonoil wrote:
Virgina, end of June and I am getting up in the middle of the night to find a blanket. Not recently typical weather for this area. The demise of the airline industry may put most of this global warming topic, so beloved by the media, to bed.
Cold here in north of England, has been cooler / colder than usual all year.
VERY busy airspace overhead here, everything USA <> Europe flies over my house in northern england. Usually 5 or more big birds at high altitude allways in view on a clear day. Mostly eastbound early morning, westbound PM. Can't say I've seen a reduction in aircraft numbers - busy transatlantic traffic, but SOMETHING is changing in the weather, cooling, not quite as much rain as usual, heavy storms threatened here tomorrow.
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Airline Bankruptcy/Merger Thread
Hey, I posted this on another forum about the death of Sin City, but so applicable to the other dying entity of events due to the Peak Oil life coming up (or is here):
Quote:
Any one who knows the real history of Las Vegas will understand that the city is really as one hotel/casino is so named a "Mirage".
The land was abandoned in the 1200's as the environment shifted from a support agricultural area to arid desert (even before the Global Warming cries). As the railroad expanded in the US in the late 1800's, the line from Salt Lake City to LA was placed through Vegas and the city served as a refueling spot for the steam locomotives. It was just a service stop, but when legalized gambling kicked in, well enough said.
I had to change planes in Vegas on a trip from PDX back to Columbus, OH. Have to burn up my USAirways frequent flier miles before they disappear. When getting to my seat, there was the 3 flight crew members sitting in the row behind me. They were the same crew that ran the PDX-LAS flight so I joked to them about seeing an hour before.
They were deadheading to CMH to run a flight out of there and they were Vegas based crew. We got on the topic of NW-Delta merge and rumors of United-USAirways merge and impact of it. They were definitely not happy union members working for the dying airlines.
I mentioned that my specialty is transportations systems and how airline are integrated with rail in Europe. One of the crew members replied that the US does not have any transportation system that is working. Actually when the railroads wanted to get rid of passenger service in the 1960's since the government was funding the highway system instead, the railroad wanted to work with the airport/ airlines to create a system of efficiency. The government said no, it would be a monopoly and the rail passenger service died off.
Actual the code name for Columbus is CMH, meaning Columbus Metro Hub, which the Pennsylvania RR ran right by and the RR was in the process of creating a system, thus, CMH. Trains would come from the east, planes take people to the west. A system thinking, but the government said no.
So here we are sitting in our seats on an inefficient system. I didn't want to tell that crew as I finished the story of the airport code CMH, that we can look out the window while waiting to finish boarding and kick off on "time"and see the Vegas' "Mirage". They were scared enough as they tried to figure out how to make their mortgage payment in the Mirage city when their employer says the famous old saying that the flight crews used to say to us paying customers: "Bye, Bye, thanks for flight with us".
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Airline Bankruptcy/Merger Thread
GASMON said:
Quote:
VERY busy airspace overhead here, everything USA <> Europe flies over my house in northern england. Usually 5 or more big birds at high altitude allways in view on a clear day. Mostly eastbound early morning, westbound PM. Can't say I've seen a reduction in aircraft numbers - busy transatlantic traffic, but SOMETHING is changing in the weather, cooling, not quite as much rain as usual, heavy storms threatened here tomorrow.
Most commercial aircraft have slowed their airspeeds to save on fuel. This translates to generally flying at lower altitudes. Denser air at lower altitudes allows for lower air speeds.
The primary problem with commercial jets has been the altitude at which they have been flying. Many of them fly at over 30,000 ft. This is high enough that their exhaust streams can put particles into the stratosphere. These particles act as nucleation points for moisture which product cirrus clouds.
It is the high elevation clouds that are contributing to the warming we have been seeing. Have you noticed how much cooler the nights have become. That has been a welcome relieve. Most global warming effects have been seen in the increase of night time temperatures.
When about half the world’s commercials get grounded because of high fuel prices, the weather is going to get down right pleasant.
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Airline Bankruptcy/Merger Thread
mos6507 said:
Quote:
I've read the reverse, that contrails block sunlight ala global dimming.
Even your source seems to be unsure what the results of cirrus cloud formation are:
Quote:
Whether contrails cause a net cooling or a net warming, even whether their effect is something to worry about, remains unclear. But with air traffic expected to double or even triple by 2050, leading contrail researchers say the influence of these artificial clouds cannot be ignored.
NASA and other sources say that high level clouds are warming, low level clouds cool.
Quote:
NASA scientists have that found cirrus clouds, formed by contrails from aircraft engine exhaust, are capable of increasing average surface temperatures enough to account for a warming trend in the United States that occurred between 1975 and 1994.
"This result shows the increased cirrus coverage, attributable to air traffic, could account for nearly all of the warming observed over the United States for nearly 20 years starting in 1975,
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Airline Bankruptcy/Merger Thread
shortonoil wrote:
But with air traffic expected to double or even triple by 2050, leading contrail researchers say the influence of these artificial clouds cannot be ignored.
That's a good one! _________________ "We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
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That's a good one! 
