Don’t worry, just a little bump - $70 is just around the corner. Short traders just keep making those margin calls, mortgage the house if you have to. Fortunes await you! PO is for pansies and doomers. At $70 short some more ..... it is going back to $22 .... the world is awash with oil ........ reality has nothing to do with it, its all in those charts!!!!!!!!!!
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:17 am Post subject: Depression
One of the most fascinating aspects of PO is that it seems to either repel or to attract individuals. It is easy to understand the underlaying concept, due to the fact however that a conclusionary link to ones individual or even collective (sudden) mortality is established, one can argue that avoidance to deal with the subject alltogether is probably the main factor of denial.
Or it is simply an octave to high for the ordinary individual to think in dimentions such as collective annihilation. Even those who claim to have spent thoughts on such topics are usually hiding under the protective cover of organized religions. They can easily be recognized since 'they always have the answer' and appear confident, as much as they might be depressed individuals in the first place.
What is it then, that makes others thrive on this intellectual excercise of an unexpected collective death, a Mort Subite? Is it a hidden death wish? Could we argue that there must be elements of depression involved, knowingly or unknowing?
Matt Savinar feels that depression results from undertanding PO, quote from his site:
If your subconscious perceives you are moving in an upwards direction, it will release the happy hormones like dopamine to keep you moving in that direction. If it perceives you are at a standstill, it will cause you to feel depressed. This has the effect of temporarily shutting you down which prevents you from wasting any more energy/time on endeavors unlikely to improving your chances of survival.
So, which is it, does the PO message attract individuals prone to depression or does it cause depression?
A third variation could be that for others the understanding of PO in its fascinating inevitabiliy has an adverse effect, meaning it actually acts as an energizing force. All one needs is the willingness to face death. This in itself is not related to depression at all, but a fact of life that we all need to deal with anyway.
Joined: Nov 16, 2007 Posts: 270 Location: Rural Western Idaho
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:02 am Post subject: Re: Depression
I think that the answer is "any of the above", depending on your starting point.
For example, someone who is already of a depressed/morose nature (I am not talking about true clinical depression) may well gravitate toward things which support his/her world view. (We ALL tend to gravitate toward things which support our world views.)
Someone who is not of a morose bent, but sees the train coming down the track, and can see no possible means of getting out of the path (i.e. has no way to make preps), is bound to get pretty depressed, scared, etc.
Then there is door number 3 ... people (like my husband and me) who (1) "get it" about peak oil; (2) started preps (moved from the city 3 yrs ago, bought a farm, started building it up); (3) invited family to join in; (4) had family arrive; (5) now realize that family is not "getting"it -- or, actually doesn't WANT to get it. This is depression of the sad variety, more than the scared kind -- although were are afraid for their futures.
However, the fact of the matter is, we cannot allow them to destroy what we have built up so far, with their insistence on clinging stubbornly and even with hostility to the old world view.
There is a song by "Queen", in which Freddy Mercury sings "I want it all, I want it all, I want it all, and I want it now!" That's where these family members are.
We are going to the thread, "The Best of MonteQuest", and printing out a bunch of stuff to share with them at our family meeting today. In addition, we are showing them that Hirsch video clip that was posted here. This is our last ditch effort to get them out of the "entitled" mode and into the "whatever it takes" mode. Otherwise, they are going to have to go.
Now THAT is depressing, considering the adult males (2 brothers) are the problems, but they will take with them the innocent wife (who IS willing to do what it takes) and two little sons (ages 2 and 4) of the eldest of the brothers. What will happen to them?
Lumpy
PS - Not meaning to hijack this thread. Just talking about depression in general got me talking about depression in specific. _________________ Dean Karnazes : "Run when you can, walk when you have to, crawl if you must; just never give up." --- Jackie Joyner-Kersee: "It is better to look forward & prepare, than to look back & regret."
Last edited by Lumpy on Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:07 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Depression
Hagakure_Leofman wrote:
And then there is Freud's theory of depression as repressed anger.
...anger is a more useful emotion than despair.
Actually I think Freud said repression constituted both anger and despair (at least according to Civilization and its Discontents). Bright folks, who are philosophically oriented, generally are more susceptible (or perceptive of) depression. I believe it was Heidegger who said that the mental lot of the philosopher was akin to spending a lifetime on an icy mountain. Some at this forum would likely concur with the sentiment. I think if Freud was alive today he would modify his view that this repression was necessary to counter our so called original, brutish state of nature, especially in light of recent anthropological/archaeological scholarship which more or less demolishes the Hobbesian myth of pre civilized man as a constant aggressor against his fellow man. At any rate, depression and civilization are two peas in the same pod. You can't have one without the other. _________________ Civilization: the biosphere's skin disease
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: Depression
Lumpy wrote:
This is our last ditch effort to get them out of the "entitled" mode and into the "whatever it takes" mode. Otherwise, they are going to have to go.
Why wasting time and energy on convincing someone else of insights that you have? Is it mandatory to be on the same page in order to live together?
I spent quite some time in the recent past trying to understand why the fairly easy to grasp concept of PO is not in the forefront of the mainstream discussion. There are multiple explanations, one of the most likely answers is that there are no answers.
It certainly is a livestyle option to interact with others as if PO would not exist. As I stated in the past, chances are large that the coming mega crisis will never be understood as PO inflicted by the broad public, simply because other factors will steal the show, think of a new world war for instance and the whole facette of explantions that the media will spread.
Joined: Nov 16, 2007 Posts: 270 Location: Rural Western Idaho
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: Depression
albente wrote:
Lumpy wrote:
This is our last ditch effort to get them out of the "entitled" mode and into the "whatever it takes" mode. Otherwise, they are going to have to go.
Why wasting time and energy on convincing someone else of insights that you have? Is it mandatory to be on the same page in order to live together?
Yes, in this case it is mandatory, because of the financial set-up.
The frustration is that they understand on an intellectual basis, but choose not to walk the walk, for reasons that obviously have to do with not wanting to let go of old ways -- and pride, pure and simple.
And that just won't work on a small farm that was to be worked and built up and prepared with everyone's cooperation and funding as the self-sustaining haven for all concerned.
Lumpy _________________ Dean Karnazes : "Run when you can, walk when you have to, crawl if you must; just never give up." --- Jackie Joyner-Kersee: "It is better to look forward & prepare, than to look back & regret."
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: Depression
Well, this would confirm my point in so far as one always has to deal with day to day 'financial' matters'. You just happen to have invited some lazy bones on to your farm. My advice: kick em out and live your new live 'as normal as the circumstances allow', no matter what the developments.
There is in a sense an even irresponsible element in PO awareness, referring to the media in general, which by no means could translate the message, since all it would generate would be unrest.
In that sense one can argue that the media might be partially aware of the matter but for good reasons holds off to spread the 'bad news'...
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: Depression
albente wrote:
One of the most fascinating aspects of PO is that it seems to either repel or to attract individuals. It is easy to understand the underlaying concept, due to the fact however that a conclusionary link to ones individual or even collective (sudden) mortality is established, one can argue that avoidance to deal with the subject alltogether is probably the main factor of denial.
Or it is simply an octave to high for the ordinary individual to think in dimentions such as collective annihilation. Even those who claim to have spent thoughts on such topics are usually hiding under the protective cover of organized religions. They can easily be recognized since 'they always have the answer' and appear confident, as much as they might be depressed individuals in the first place.
What is it then, that makes others thrive on this intellectual excercise of an unexpected collective death, a Mort Subite? Is it a hidden death wish? Could we argue that there must be elements of depression involved, knowingly or unknowing?
Matt Savinar feels that depression results from undertanding PO, quote from his site:
If your subconscious perceives you are moving in an upwards direction, it will release the happy hormones like dopamine to keep you moving in that direction. If it perceives you are at a standstill, it will cause you to feel depressed. This has the effect of temporarily shutting you down which prevents you from wasting any more energy/time on endeavors unlikely to improving your chances of survival.
So, which is it, does the PO message attract individuals prone to depression or does it cause depression?
A third variation could be that for others the understanding of PO in its fascinating inevitabiliy has an adverse effect, meaning it actually acts as an energizing force. All one needs is the willingness to face death. This in itself is not related to depression at all, but a fact of life that we all need to deal with anyway.
Well, many of us are working towards a new life. So the happy juice comes from that. But the underlying fact is we are running out of crude.
Funny how the stuff we once valued loses its luster when our world gets ripped out from under us? I look around at a lot of the stuff I have acquired over the years and think to myself...what a waste...how useless this stuff will become in the new world?
Suddenly, we come to an enlightenment of sorts in life. We come to terms with the basics of living once all the consumerism, greed, ego and consumption sickness gets stopped.
We may look at others stuck on a treadmill they can't get off, weighed down with useless possessions heading down dead end road and blind to what awaits them and think to ourselves...poor person. Others may look at a survivalist and think to themselves, not a lot of money, not a lot of comfort, not a lot of glitz, always looking over their back for doom and gloom...poor person.
But in either case, they do not realize that poorness is many time just a state of mind.
From 'As A Man Thniketh'..."Wretchedness, not lack of material possessions, is the measure of wrong thought. A man may be cursed and rich; he may be blessed and poor...the poor man only descends into wretchedness when he regards his lot as a burden unjustly imposed."
How can a person like Thoreau feel rich with $10 in his pocket, yet many a modern day millionaire feels poor? In two words - Self Worth. Self worth cannot be bought and resides within a person whereas money is external and sits in a bank vault.
The acid test for such things is to take away a person possessions and strip a person naked and see how much self worth is left? Was all their self worth wrapped up in their house? Their car? Their trophy wife? Their bank account? If you ever wonder why rich people sometimes commit suicide after they have lost their wealth, this is the reason. All their self worth was locked up in a bank vault - there was nothing left within them to live for.
If you equate living within a budget as being poor, then you are not looking at the big picture. To be practical, everyone has a budget to live within, if they want to manage their money successfully and stay solvent. Even Bill Gates with his billions has a budget. Depending on which projects he would take on, his billions wouldn't go far enough.
Or lets go to the ultimate source, the US Government. Even though they can print money at will (more or less) they have a budget to follow. So why should we be any different and not accept our limits?
Accepting my comfortable means and developing a real gratitude for those means has led to great inner peace, Whereas in my prior life nothing was ever enough and there was no peace. I look at the clarity a budget provides as freedom, not limitations. For without that clarity, I'd be in debt and suffering and far from feeling free.
We can develop much happiness in life once we start practicing gratitude as Thoreau wrote: "I am grateful for what I am & have. My thanksgiving is perpetual. It is surprising how contended one can be with nothing definite - only a sense of existence."
Would not every great man or woman that took a spiritual path be considered a failure if viewed in monetary terms alone without gratitude for the rest of their life? Was the Buddha, Jesus, Thoreau or Mother Teresa vastly rich? The Buddha a homeless beggar having to be fed by others with charity? A well loved Greco-Roman philosopher Epictitus was said to have 4 possessions when he died - a cloak, a bowl, a candle and sandals. Socrates even surpassed Epictitus in his simplicity.
All Socrates owned was a cloak and walked around Athens barefoot. I am not writing this to persuade you to go around barefoot and not own anything. I am just conveying the knowledge that the great spiritual and philosophical practitioners of history would not be considered successes when viewed in monetary terms alone. But, they were great success when it came to inner peace.
In the real world, we all need some money to live. Some people may get the wrong idea that I am against money. No, what I do guard against is turning money into a god and destroying one's life and the lives of others to get money by artificial means.
Thoreau tells us that we need food, shelter, fuel and clothes as necessities. In modern times, I will add transportation to the list depending on your local. Everything else is pretty much optional. If we have these needs met and are still not happy, then their is no end to our supposed needs for that elusive state of happiness that we seek.
We all seem to have no shortage of supposed needs or wants. The problem arises when we have to scale back and force ourselves as AA's 12 and 12 tells us to live "right size" and our self worth is attached to the idea of looking for inner fulfillment through outer possessions. Money is a useful tool, but as one writer reminds us - money only goes so far.
Money can buy a house, but not a home.
Money can buy a bed, but not sleep.
Money can buy a clock, but not time.
Money can buy a book, but not knowledge.
Money can buy food, but not an appetite.
Money can buy position, but not respect.
Money can buy blood, but not life.
Money can buy medicine, but not health.
Money can buy sex, but not love.
Money can buy insurance, but not safety.
You see, money is not everything
There is much more to living a serene, happy and balanced life than mere money. Money is nothing more than stored energy. Money is neither good or bad - it is people that do good or bad things with money. People also do good or bad things to 'get' money.
The bible tells us in Phillipians 4:11 "For I have learned in whatever situation I find myself to be content. I am experienced in living low and I know what it is to have abundance. I have learned how to cope with every circumstance - how to eat well or go hungry, to be well provided for or to do without." While not great advice for all occasions, it underscores the fact that happiness resides within us and not in things.
Peace and contentment is not limited to any one religion and is open to all. The problem for some of us with absorbing such wisdom is that of our own prejudices. I discussed this in my earlier post "Our guiding Light - Prejudice or Truth" if you want a copy write me.
I was talking with a lawyer last summer. He was a millionaire and had a nice penthouse office with big leather tufted upholstered chair and a secretary to fetch his coffee and donuts all day. He was grossly fat and had hard time breathing as he wheezed and coughed.
He also had a badly swollen leg that might need amputation from diabetes and poor circulation. As he recalled all his projects to me I could see why he was in so poor physical shape. He had no shortage of business ventures, he was in automobile dealerships, real estate develop, metallurgy and reclamation, venture capital loans as well as his law practice.
He was all about making money, but was bankrupt when it came to healthy living practices. It did not sink in to him that sitting on your butt all day, smoking, drinking coffee, getting stressed out and eating junk foods is not healthy living no matter how much money you make.
No matter how 'rich' a person is they cannot pay their butler to eat healthy foods for them nor have ones butler or maid do ones exercises and sweat for them. We are all on equal ground in this area. I discussed this in detail in my earlier post "The King and Queen of Good Health" When I write about BALANCED LIVING, this lawyer is a textbook example of UNBALANCED living. I tried to plant some seeds in him through living a life of voluntary simplicity, healthy eating and exercise. You know what he told me?
He said he had too many bills to slow down and had no time for exercise. Oh well, all I can do is plant seeds in others...I can't force them to sprout. Being a millionaire wasn't enough for the lawyer, he still had 'poorness' consciousness.Thoreau once said: "a man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to leave alone." This millionaire was much too busy to live right. He reminded me of a quote from Ruskin.
"In a shipwreck, one of the passengers fastened a belt about him with one hundred pounds of gold in it, with which he was afterwards found at the bottom. Now, as he was sinking--had he the gold? Or had the gold him?"
I took some time off when I left the meeting with the lawyer to go trail running. I am most grateful and rich for having such wilderness just 15 minutes away. While running, I recalled how I used to visit these same woods for nearly a decade, yet never heard a woodpecker until a few years ago. My mind was too concentrated with worries and my own obsessions of money and material things.
I heard my first woodpecker in the summer of 2001. The woodpeckers were always in the woods, but my mind was not. I was present with body only. My mindless state was not limited to the woods - I was mindless in my daily life as well. My Buddhist practice reminded me that mindfulness of the present moment is the foundation for living a life at peace. Peace is not in the past, nor is it in the future.
Peace is always in the present moment. Once I let go of past and future obsessions and became present, all of a sudden I was able to see and hear many new things in my life. And just like the woodpeckers, these gifts were always in my life - I just could not see or hear them. As I relaxed after my run near a small waterfall and listened to the birds sing and the woodpeckers rat-a-tat-tat, I gave thanks for my two good legs, my health and for the clean air and luscious green nature that surrounded me.
Contentment makes poor men rich. Discontent makes rich men poor. ~ Benjamin Franklin
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: Re: Depression
I enjoyed your post, allenwrench. I try to acknowledge the little things I'm thankful for every day, and it's interesting - they're often the simplest things, like a conversation with someone, or a few minutes spent looking at a fabulous garden.
Albente, in regards to your original post, I wonder how many people are attracted to peak oil-related sites because they're depressed. When I first visited such sites, it was curiosity that led the way, as I had seen the words "peak oil" on somewhat unrelated reading material. I think, after first learning about oil depletion issues, a person who tends to be depressed could become a lot more depressed. Someone who is more optimistic can investigate the issues and weigh the evidence, or the arguments, and then decide whether to do anything about what he or she has learned. I think it would be more difficult for someone who is feeling depressed to act, though. I don't think depression is a very good motivator. Fear can be, and anger can be, and optimism about mitigating the problems can be an effective motivator. I think that if someone was really depressed upon learning about PO, they'd have to get past that first before being able to act, although I could have it all wrong and someone who suffers from depression may have a totally different slant on this.
I have a recent example about the effect of depression on action, though. Last fall, my family celebrated my parents' 50th wedding anniversary. We had a lovely afternoon party for them, with 75 guests, wine and a nice lunch. In the planning stages, one sibling, who was depressed, thought the idea of the party was a bad one because our dad has a chronic illness and may not be able to handle an afternoon with so many people. After the sibling expressed his reservations about planning this party, the rest of us felt reluctant to go ahead. We soon shrugged off the negativity, though, and went ahead with the arrangements. The afternoon was a great success, everything came together perfectly, the guests all attended, my mom and dad were so thrilled with it all, and dad managed just fine. I was so glad we followed our instincts and acted optimistically, not being able to be sure that everything would turn out but just trusting it would.
I'm not suggesting that if people are optimistic about oil depletion and energy crises that all will be well and we can continue with our current lifestyles - no, it's not nearly that simple and I'm quite certain big changes are in store for us. But if we are drawn to these issues because we're depressed, I think our chances of survival are not nearly as good.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4054 Location: Gathering
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:28 am Post subject: Re: Depression
The storms you have to weather in life are based upon your perception of reality. If you happen to perceive reality in harsh or unpleasant terms, you can find yourself in choppy seas.
When trying to navigate choppy seas, the question is what the ideal port would look like. For many, the ideal port is simply a comfortable delusion that explains hardship in terms that provides wholeness or meaning to the struggle.
For others, the ideal port is something like a real solution to the root cause of the problem of choppy seas. These people don't want to escape reality, they want to change reality so that it doesn't need to be escaped.
Unfortunately, the search for such a port can often lead to being slammed up against rocks mercilessly until you regret having undertaken the whole adventure.
I think that depression is the psychological feeling of being slammed up against these rocks. _________________
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11880 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Depression
I've had a pretty darn easy life and my life now is just about ideal, but I still have depression (with and without medication). It's just the way my darn brain is. It's got nothing to do with what's actually going on or my attitude.
Oh well, them's the breaks! _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Joined: Jun 14, 2008 Posts: 81 Location: With one foot in ascent and the other in descent
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Depression
albente wrote:
What is it then, that makes others thrive on this intellectual excercise of an unexpected collective death, a Mort Subite? Is it a hidden death wish? Could we argue that there must be elements of depression involved, knowingly or unknowing?....So, which is it, does the PO message attract individuals prone to depression or does it cause depression?
Losses cause situational depression. It is the recognition of these losses (today's great rant by SpecOp and sigh by Albente) that makes one sad. The good news is that the depression is brought on by a situation that one can adjust to, rather than coming out of the blue. So to speak. _________________ Because it's all about the oil.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4054 Location: Gathering
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:55 am Post subject: Re: Depression
Ludi wrote:
I've had a pretty darn easy life and my life now is just about ideal, but I still have depression (with and without medication). It's just the way my darn brain is. It's got nothing to do with what's actually going on or my attitude.
Oh well, them's the breaks!
Has your life been easy psychologically?
Has the way you interpreted the world around you brought you peace or an unshakable sense of uneasiness?
The "easy" life is the one in which the mental state feels good. Without the desired mental state, life is not easy.
That's why the life of the addict is so tough. He is always chasing a mental state that is just beyond his grasp. _________________
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It's got nothing to do with what's actually going on or my attitude.
