Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:14 am Post subject: Metals and permaculture
Is any metalwork really sustainable? Mining and smelting requires a lot of energy, hierarchic structures, division of labour etc - a complex society with ultimately unsatisfiable energy need. Metals are a finite resource - though recyclable to a degree with considerable energy input.
I'm not saying end of metal age would be anywhere near (no sooner than next century ) but if we want to stop repeating the same mistake over and over, these kinds of questions need to be asked.
Is permaculture gardening really permaculture, if using metal tools instead of (self-made) stone age tools?
Joined: Jan 02, 2008 Posts: 403 Location: out dispatching ronan...
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:06 am Post subject: Re: Metals and permaculture
Totally! One of the core principles of permaculture is "generate no waste". Therefore, think of ALL the metals in the world that will currently have little purpose in their current form.
Melt these iron beasts down and forge the tools of tomorrow.
Trade: After giving a tax of rice/potatoes to government officials, the rest of a farmer's produce were traded for basic goods from the town. Soap, matches, salt,lamp/cooking oil, cloth/textiles, iron tools, and timber. She stressed that there was never enough money made to get enough of all of these items, so the villagers were constantly short of something. Everything was used and resued over and over again until it was entirely gone.
While some perceived that account to be depressing, I'm inspired by it's elegant and humble simplicity. "Everything was used and resued over and over again until it was entirely gone."
Today, we waste everything, including people. Everything - disposable commodities to buy and sell for 'money' - a hollow concept of 'wealth'. Recycling isn't just a moral imperative - it's a necessity. And it has been, throughout all history, and it's seen as a part of all natural eco-systems. We've only forgotten this reality during our oil driven resource orgy. This is now coming to a end, and it's time to wake up and start recycling for real.
And by this, I don't mean dropping your cardboard on the front lawn for the municipal recycling services to collect it and use more energy to convert it into another consumable product.
Joined: Jan 02, 2008 Posts: 403 Location: out dispatching ronan...
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:26 am Post subject: Re: Metals and permaculture
Just as a properly forged samurai sword of the 17th century could effortlessly half the bodies of three men in a single pass, so shall the blade of a newly forged scythe cut countless bushels of wheat in the post-peak oil world...
What better a renewal for an old abandoned hub cap?
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Metals and permaculture
MrBean wrote:
Is any metalwork really sustainable? Mining and smelting requires a lot of energy, hierarchic structures, division of labour etc - a complex society with ultimately unsatisfiable energy need. Metals are a finite resource - though recyclable to a degree with considerable energy input.
i've made silver castings using, alternatively, a pine log fire and an oak fire. and a machined iron piece that had the cavity where the silver both melted & re-formed.
the oak fire worked better, it ran about 200 degrees F hotter.
after that experience, i took a conventional jewelry class where you use wax (which gets burned out to create a cavity), using that to create normal shapes (rings, bracelets).
anyway, yes, the whole process is energy intensive. but i don't think it will go extinct. with energy so expensive, metal-working mistakes (e.g. if you're stupid enough to try & learn arc-welding wearing a bathing suit) will become a lot more expensive.
a friend with a conventional silversmithing shop later told me that the camp-fire work i did was similar to millenia-old techniques used in Africa.
when i used the mold-in-the-campfire method, there was plenty of time to cook food. if i had tried, i could have done both. the net result is some very oddly shaped pieces of gold & silver.
i wonder which metal-working projects will be prioritized in an energy depleted future. then again, i was trained using conventional techniques, most of them energy intensive. BUT as these students at MIT
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=12153
maybe you can do it using the sun (melt metal as part of a metalworking process). of course, if you look at what their rig is built of, it's all energy-intensive, steel (or aluminum) tube, and polished metal plates.
most of the engineers i've worked with - including the mechanical engineers - are not familiar with metal-working; a minority are very skilled. i have my own set of limitations - i'm good at metal-working, but my vision sucks. _________________ http://www.LASIK-Flap.com/ ~ Health Warning about LASIK Eye Surgery
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Metals and permaculture
jdumars,
Ever knapped an arrowhead, or spearpoint? I have (not very well), and can tell you that suitable stone is not in plentiful supply. Stone age cultures often travelled greaat distances to get proper materials. I think I read that the Iceman found in the Alps was on a trip obtaining stone. I live in an area of southern Indiana where flint and chert are comparatively abundant, due to the limestone geology, and it is still at least a 5 or 6 mile walk to a spot where I MIGHT find some, or might not. I'm not convinced that stone age tech is sustainable either, and definitely not at present population levels.
I've done some work lately on restoring a water powered grist mill 4 miles from us. The millstones are a very hard silica stone, imported over 100 years ago from France, called "French Burr". Local limestone can be used, but wears very fast, and any millstones must not be allowed to contact each other directly, but be left with grain in them to prevent dulling at start-up.
My cast iron burrs, however, while having the same use requirements, are 30 years old and will last another 100.
I think judicious use of all resources, in a drastically powered-down world, is the only long term possibility. Metals will have a place in that, and the forge will regain it's place in life. _________________ Local fix-it guy..
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Metals and permaculture
I think metalwork is completely sustainable. It is recyclable almost indefinitely and scrap metal is everywhere. Think of all the metal in your house and vehicles. That stuff can be reworked for generations. Look at how long metal products last. I used a cast iron pan yesterday that is at least 100 yrs old. As for mined material, iron is still very common and easily available. It would be mined on a much smaller scale i.e. picks and shovels but it would still be mined. Dont forget that 200 yrs ago metal was very expensive. People made wooden hinges, shovels only had a metal edge with the rest made of wood. Most transportation was with wooden carts, Farm work was done with mostly wooden implements. Metal was used for reinforcements ans fasteners. Items that were reused when the wood was replaced.
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Metals and permaculture
coastie,
Agreed. I think if we look to history for the nearest match of conditions, we will find some useful ideas. No match is perfect here. If future conditions are little or no oil and NG, some coal available at high cost due to demand and transport costs, and little electricity, also high priced, and also, much reduced transport, mostly rail, then the period from 1850 to 1920 could be instructive.
With the above as my best guess of the near future, then we have railroads for heavy long hauls, a mix of every conveyance known to man for transport, with emphasis on muscle power, and some tractors along with some draft animals for farm power. The workday will again be sunup to sundown, and whatever power is available will be used to help ease drudgery, not for entertainment value to speak of.
Rural life up until WWII in the US, if they were lucky, had a windmill to pump stock water, and maybe a Jacobs wind generator to charge a battery for the radio. Farm work was horse power, and manual labor. One guy in the area had a threshing machine and a steam engine he hired out, and used the engine in a sawmill in the off-season. There was metal around, but it was costly, and saved forever. _________________ Local fix-it guy..
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Metals and permaculture
Patience, yes I have knapped stones. In my current location, I don't need to. It's absolutely chock-a-block full of old ones, hide knives, and other well-formed stone tools. People have lived in this area for thousands of years.
Sustainability doesn't give a crap about how many people there are in the world. A vastly ecologically degraded world such as the one we currently live in may only support 500 million people sustainably. _________________ Dismantle globally, renew locally!
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Metals and permaculture
jdumars,
I think you're probably right about very long term, that is, sustainability in the strictest sense of the word. I guess I am thinking about a near to intermediate period of say 5 to 100 years. Much longer than that, I wouldn't even bet that humans will be around, and if so, there may not be anyone left who has metal skills.
I've been giving some thought to what the next 5 to 25 years might look like. In that period, there will still be a lot of industrial leftovers, and a few people around who can make some use of them, so metal will play apart in that time. I think this salvage era will wind down to something of lower technology in a generation or two. How far down the technology scale it will go in 3 or 4 generations, I can't guess.
I hope for the sake of those future people that they don't have to start over from the Olduvai Gorge. I would feel very disappointed in the human race if they can't do better than that, even with a die back to the degree you said. I wonder what the world poulation was at the heyday of Ur? They worked gold and bronze, I think. And stone, pottery, and had some agriculture going on. I hope it doesn't get any worse than that.
edit: If we have a very fast, hard crash, we could lose most of our skills. In that case, people might have to re-invent the stoneworking skills, too. _________________ Local fix-it guy..
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 4590 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: Metals and permaculture
jdumars wrote:
The only sustainable technology is stone age technology. It's as simple as that.
Stone age man didn't have the remains of industrial civilization conveniently sitting around on the surface for us to salvage. _________________ http://doomsteaddiary.blogspot.com/
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) but if we want to stop repeating the same mistake over and over, these kinds of questions need to be asked.
