Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Quote:
As joel said:
"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." (1 Corinthians 2:2)
Alex
Paul you mean? lol.
I think it has come to that. Post modern does not do justice to the lack of knowledge even about the gospel message that we see. It's odd because they know enough about the Bible to know they don't want any part of it. And then if you go out after a soul you think, thank God. But then comes the discipleship and which church do you recommend to them?
I think we have to admit that the message of the gospel is becoming more and more marginalized within the culture. It is not hard to understand how there will come a day when you cannot buy and sell unless you have the Mark of the Beast and when anyone that even believes in Jesus would be subject to open hostility. It is already where almost nothing happens in society unless the made men have their hands on it. It's too bad that sinners can't in any way bypass Jesus and expect to approach the throne of God. He simply said this,
'I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me.'
'I am the true door all who came before me were thieves and robbers.'
'I am the true vine, if you abide in me and I in you you shall bear much fruit.'
At a time when more and more American Christians are contenting themselves with a mortgage, an F250, and a pension fund, and the churches are preaching everything but the central tenets of Jesus' religion, we have peak oil looming. Like giant sunami generated by a five thousand mile long plate rupture under the ocean it is speeding toward us and all the boats at sea only notice a slight bulge as the wave travels under them. One day soon the wave will approach the shores of America and Europe and the Asian economies and then it will rear up all too suddenly.
These are times when the plight of Jeremiah is well understood by the faithful. He testified to them for decades and they never believed a thing he said.
He said 'God was going to allow Babylon to sack Jerusalem'
They said 'Never!'
Then it happened.
He said 'Settle in and build your houses exiles, it will be 70 years of captivity'
The false prophets said it would pass suddenly and God would restore Israel.
Therefore they abused Jeremiah because of his words
He said 'The Lord will punish those who go down to Egypt for help'
They said ' We are going down to Egypt for help and taking you with us.'
These times are no different.
There is no peace apart from Jesus. You cannot get in by climbing over the wall ans setting up your secret power structures. Even though your stated goals are moral, without Christ you are against Him, and He will not suffer the earth to be ruled by you for long.
Lord strengthen your Beloved and help us to know each other. In the cleft of th Rock covered by the palm of Your hand, keep us against the days which come all too soon.
'Now as to times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night or darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do but let us be alert and sober. For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another, and build up one another, just as you also are doing.'
1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
That ministry of encouragement in the name of Jesus is a great find, a sign that God's Spirit is accepted and working within a congregation. Understand that whatever trials we may face in the years to come, God is working all things together for good for those who love Him (Rom 8:28.) That is no small trust we lay at the feet of Christ, and He is up to the task (Phil 2:9-13.)
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Peleg said:
Quote:
I think we have to admit that the message of the gospel is becoming more and more marginalized within the culture.
God said:
Quote:
"Behold, the days come saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord." Amos 8:11
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Come on already. Exactly how deep in denial are y'all.
Can you at least admit that Chirstians and Christianity have utterly failed to save creation from materialism, whether capitalist or communist?
And can you really deny that pretty near all Christians in the capitalist world (which is now pretty much the whole world) have partaken about as whole heartedly as anyone else in the orgy of consumerism that is destroying the planet?
Claiming that your texts don't sanction this activity doesn't really let the lived religion off the hook, in my view. Claiming otherwise is like saying that, since the founding documents of the US state that all men are created equal, the US government can't have been responsible for slavery. It just doesn't wash.
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:23 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
dohboi wrote:
Come on already. Exactly how deep in denial are y'all.
Can you at least admit that Christians and Christianity have utterly failed to save creation from materialism, whether capitalist or communist?
And can you really deny that pretty near all Christians in the capitalist world (which is now pretty much the whole world) have partaken about as whole heartedly as anyone else in the orgy of consumerism that is destroying the planet?
Claiming that your texts don't sanction this activity doesn't really let the lived religion off the hook, in my view. Claiming otherwise is like saying that, since the founding documents of the US state that all men are created equal, the US government can't have been responsible for slavery. It just doesn't wash.
If only I knew the latin term for that argument I would know far too much latin. You cannot accuse God of sin. He wrote the Book, He made the opportunity. Calling ourselves 'Christian' does'nt mean God suddenly becomes the author of all of our actions.
To take your point more in the way you seem to want.
Fact: I had no clue about the impact of our way of life on the environment when I was young and neither did anyone else I knew. Even after becoming a Christian at age 19 there was no one around who took environmentalism seriously. So am I completely to blame for the sins of a nation simply because at 19 I could not influence the entire Christian world to care about the fish in the stream? No.
Fact: After I learned about the environment and energy issues, human population (the whole big issue) I found some disturbing things. First, the church in general was so addicted to the consumerist lifestyle, completely unaware that they have been being brainwashed for three generations, that anything about environmental stewardship was considered sinful for a long time. Only in the last maybe five years has the notion of creation care come up. It is a fine movement and many Christians I know had outdoors type ethics, but nothing of the order that would be needed to really walk in harmony with the cycles of the natural world. Second, I awoke to all these 'truths' knowing that there was no way I could quickly do anything about them, either by quickly getting myself and my family off the grid or by influencing the 300 million people in America to do what was afterall better for themselves.
Now, in an attempt to call us back to the Scriptures (and this will not sit well with someone who is hypergreen but), the creation according to the Bible is under a curse (Romans 8:19-21.) It is waiting for the revealing of the Sons of God at the return of Jesus to be set free and healed, and God is able to heal it. Take that any way you like. It is clear there are ways that Christians can act toward the creation that are sinful. Waste,...the
Bible says 'He who is lazy is brother to him who is a great waster' Proverbs 18:9
It takes diligence to manage well your stewardship. About ten years ago there was an article in Christianity Today saying that the most prominent sin in the church was not greed, or lust, but sloth. So, if we neglect our duties the house falls into disrepair. It's hard to eat when every dish in the house is dirty all the time.
I also wanted to mention Kathy's quote from Amos. That prophecy in context is about Israel, we know that. However it is reasonable to assume that God might deal with nations, or the church in a similar manner if we had neglected our responsibility (ie it was somehow necessary.)
That the latter rain preachers of thirty years ago used that verse to pump up the faithful and then proclaim how great a time they lived in does not change the principle. The fact is contextual, God at many times made open word scarce among the Israelites. The time before Samuel was born was one such time. And in His wisdom He does allow there to be droughts of hearing God's word. I do not believe that we are currently in one per se, where God is not speaking or willing to have mercy or heal. We are in a time of tickling ears, and of hearts that are growing hard because sin abounds. People are chosing sin when for generations the best preachers int he world have often frequented these shores. We are in the time of the great falling away.
Several have mentioned that. Admit though that this is not an excuse. Israel was never able to say to God, 'Lord you ain't been talkin' to us,... so can we get a pass on that asherah pole?'
I believe (and I preface it with that) that the fifth seal is the fire, the judgment that Peter says would start with the House of God. Could I be wrong, yes. Are there those who would blatantly and hatefully rebuke me for saying that, yes. Here is how I see it and I share it for the sake of transparency and I hope it blesses someone. I wish to be obedient and to never add to or take away from God's word, which gets harder and harder when the churches immediately want you to circumcise yourself before you sit down to table with them.
The fifth seal comes after 1/4 th of the human population has died because of the results of the first three seals. It is persecution of the saints. The church is thus purged (it is a return to the time of the early church, which so many pray for and are not aware of what they seek.) The visible churches in that time ar emore and more coming under the ever watchful eye of the authorities who are more and more not innocent public servants but made men intent on ruling the world. The church may often then meet in secret. Now that church is purified and strengthened and shown very clearly that it must come outside the system of the world that is being raised up because the system is allowing the abuse, the church is being attacked like a scapegoat. it is similar to the persecutions that happened to the early church. The unbelievers are suffering horribly under judgments that the church does not wish upon them but that we cannot stop, and we are all singing and being happy about Jesus coming soon, and not being terrified by the signs of the times. How many know that makes the devil mad?
Now the martyrs are told to wait until the number be complete. The 144,000 is symbolic and not about Jews, but about the endtimes church, this is an adventist teaching to understand why the tribes mentioned are different than in Israel's blessings in Genesis, but I believe it is true. That endtimes church is seeking God like never before, a remnant from all across the world and from every denomination that preaches the gospel. God goes forward and seals that church in a special way to prepare them for the ministry to come, the gospel of the coming kingdom is going to be preached in all the world by them. When the seventh seal is broken the prayers of the saints are mixed with the fire of the altar and the censor is cast back to the earth. Revival! Pentecost times a thousand!!! The way is narrow yes, but that church will do greater works.
Que the trumpets. A series of judgments in which one third of all sorts of things are destroyed, the green grass, the fish in the sea, the sun and moon are dimmed by 1/3... Christ is one person of the trinity who was killed. Through it the church is witnessing and the two witnesses are hidden in her midst. Amazing things are going on but there is even more to come. The fifth trumpet is important, because now specific judgments are being handed out to those who are not sealed by the Holy Spirit. The mark of the beast has not come yet but people are seeing a difference 'I will again show a difference between those who are Mine and those who are not..' The sixth trumpet, a war in the Middle East centered on Iraq (four angels have been bound there? Consider that.) Que the witnesses and the beginning of the seven years. Now a ministry rises up in the spirit and power of Moses and Elijah, a fearsome duo testifying to the whole earth for 3 1/2 years, building and consoling the persecuted church. Walking across borders and finding their way into every living room via television. The guys are empowered not just to testify but to chasten with power granted by God, very similar to the ministry of Moses in Egypt and the ministry of Elijah against the prophets of Baal. And are there ever Prophets of Baal, even more, Jannis and Jambres live on in the dark connivings of some in that time. The witnesses however are not playing games and they are viewed with terror, in fact they are called 'terrorists' though they never but speak and the angels of God act, they are treated and thought of as criminals. Many are inspired and many lust after their power, since in this time it is understood by many that the universe is both physical and spiritual. The supernatural nature of their ministry cannot hidden.
The church is continuing to be persecuted and standing strong and people are still getting saved, but many are growing harder and harder in their hearts. Then later in the 3 1/2 years the witnesses make their way to Jerusalem just as their Lord once did (Are they messianic jews?.) That place which is called spiritually Sodom and Egypt (understand this if you are able) and the Antichrist is about to rise. The world dictator had come onto the scene and ratified the covenant with the many which caused the two witnesses to rise. Now the antichrist finds power through his resurrection by Satan and God's sovereignty to defeat the two witnesses. He thinks he has won, these men who tormented the world are dead, but while the people are watching their dead bodies on TIVO and congratulating themselves for destroying them God raises them from the dead and great fear falls on those who see it. They are taken up to heaven in a cloud. While they were here they were giving instruction to the church as God led them saying 'After we leave be in prayer and stay watchful for the seventh trumpet will sound at a day and hour you do not expect and the Rapture will happen.' So at a season known to all the sons of light but at a time only known to God the seventh trumpet sounds and the church is raptured.
The devil and the antichrist are plenty upset, seeing their quarry and scapegoats having overcome them through the power of God. They attack Israel as the antichrist puts himself up in the Temple claiming to be God. But God causes Israel to be sheltered in the wilderness. So the edict is given, find anyone who thinks they can Name this Name of Jesus and exterminate them. It was the Christians who brought all of this upon us those hates and we must elliminate Christianity from the earth now (a goal of many of the leading occultists of the last century, in case you did not know.) No one will be able to buy or sell without the mark. It will be a horrible time for those who come to the faith, their good deeds follow after them, if they are captured they are immediately destined for death (by guillotoine?.) Que the bowls, and now it is personal. Those judgments fall on
1st Bowl: sores on all who recieved the mark of the beast
2nd Bowl: the sea, everything dies
3rd Bowl: the rivers become blood
4th Bowl: the sun scorches men but they do not repent
5th Bowl: the kingdom of the beast and His throne become darkened, they gnaw their teeth because of the pain
6th Bowl: The Euphrates runs dry, making way for an invasion from the East (China, India, Pakistan, Iran,...) a final battle. Who are they fighting? Each other? Probably not, the spirits like frogs gathered them to the Holy Land, to the valley of Armageddon.
7th Bowl: They have gathered because they suspect that when the seventh angel pours out his bowl the Lord will return, they know He is coming, His sign is in the clouds. And so, these poor empty shells who once called themselves human, now possesed each one by the demons, try to stand to resist the Lord as He returns. But they cannot.
We are closer in time to all of these things than most of the Church in America is aware (as far as I can tell.) I am speaking this to you all again and again knowing full well that to the world this is madness, incompetence in ministry, folly, or even worse some type of seditious evil intended on questioning the happy future that is planned by those who claim God but refuse Jesus Christ.
'Lord, Lord did'nt we......?'
The antichrist will appear to have been resurrected by the power of his God, the Dragon, Satan. But He is an impostor. Anyone who follows him and receives the mark will go to eternal torment.
What we see in the Scriptures at Christ's return is that the powers that be are obliterated and a new world is set up under the Divine Kingship of Jesus Christ, reigning from Jerusalem for a 1000 years, and after that under an even greater revealing for all eternity. Now tell me honestly that psychoanalysts think that is normal?
Call me what you like, I believe with all my heart that Jesus will reign in Jerusalem by 2050. Deduct seven years from that and get 2043. That is 35 years from now and it means almost everyone in my generation (Gen X and younger) will be alive to see the peace treaty and view the face of the antichrist on television or whatever vision they have at that time.
Why am I not putting a particular time? First it is not necessary. We have the timetable, it is to recognize the seasons. If we fail to recognize the death of 25% of the world's population in the aftermath of peak oil, will we fail to see the ministry of the two witnesses and of the endtimes church, a Bride dressed in glorious light? Not unless we have been chosen for destruction. But it says all in the world hate the witnesses for their ministry is considered terrorism.
We cannot miss that. So, if we are now sitting at the opening of the third seal and a time when greater and greater control of the financial system is being garnered because of the impending collapse, notice the statement 'a loaf of bread for a day's wages.' that could refer to alot of things. One a big problem with price and scarcity, and two price controls and rationing, three economic imperalism in the wake of a major meltdown.
Although I have learned environmental issues as a scientist, I have pursued them as a student of prophecy. My entire life since my earliest recollection has been a pursuit of 'why?' something always drawing me onward. Since the day I became a Christian I have never been able to silence the voice in my spirit saying 'This is the time that has been written about.'
Before peak oil and climate change I did not know exactly what to think, God would do it in His time. But then when you consider that peak oil is the work of our own hands, our own lack of wisdom, our own lack of love. Don't we know that God is fulfilling the words of David, 'the wicked are snared by the works of their own hands.'
I cannot be afraid to be judged maladjusted. I never intend to adjust myself to injustice. I never intend to adjust myself to the poor suffering while the rich brainwash them and exploit them. I never intend to adjust myself to a world ruled by sin.
The Word of God is pure. God is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 4867 Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:57 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
dohboi wrote:
Come on already. Exactly how deep in denial are y'all.
Can you at least admit that Chirstians and Christianity have utterly failed to save creation from materialism, whether capitalist or communist?
And can you really deny that pretty near all Christians in the capitalist world (which is now pretty much the whole world) have partaken about as whole heartedly as anyone else in the orgy of consumerism that is destroying the planet?
Claiming that your texts don't sanction this activity doesn't really let the lived religion off the hook, in my view. Claiming otherwise is like saying that, since the founding documents of the US state that all men are created equal, the US government can't have been responsible for slavery. It just doesn't wash.
Christianity has been very destructive through out the ages and has ruined many cultures.
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
vision-master wrote:
AlwaysThere wrote:
dohboi wrote:
Great. Have fun rejoicing. But can you do it in a way that doesn't trash the planet, please?
Sure, perhaps you could write a letter to the Fortune 250 as well, How about just telling them to shut everything down.
I guess I have a question to people who think like you:
Do you enjoy being alive ? Chances are, without Industrial Civ, you would not even exist, so what right do you have to complain ?
Your true colors have been exposed - The Hopi's call your kind "two hearted".
A.T. is telling the truth. Do the thought experiment and you realize most of us would not exist without modern civilization. Probably 25% would never have been born without the exploitation of resources we have seen since the industrial revolution.
That said, I'm not sure that those who have faith actually 'need' any particular society or technology. God provided for alot of people for a long time before the cotton gin.
Well here is the sad statistical evidence about the Great Apostasy in America.
How can you even have the gall to sit in the pews of an evangelical church and think there are many ways to heaven?
What part of 'I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me.' John 14:6 don't you get?
I felt very sad for the Catholic church, 60% do not believe God even exists. Of those who do, many simply thought He was some kind of impersonal force.
I have to tell you that it is not too far from where we are that those who do believe God is real and personal start to get viewed as mentally unstable. You know that is where they will go once it becomes apparent that the Holy Spirit within the true church is'nt going to accept homosexuality and irreligion. In the wake of great apostasy comes tribulation for those who do believe.
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
vision-master wrote:
AlwaysThere wrote:
dohboi wrote:
Great. Have fun rejoicing. But can you do it in a way that doesn't trash the planet, please?
Sure, perhaps you could write a letter to the Fortune 250 as well, How about just telling them to shut everything down.
I guess I have a question to people who think like you:
Do you enjoy being alive ? Chances are, without Industrial Civ, you would not even exist, so what right do you have to complain ?
Your true colors have been exposed - The Hopi's call your kind "two hearted".
VM, I hope you will not take offense when I proclaim you are a very easy person to ignore. I am happy to be alive, and also enjoy the benefits of our world.
The Hopi's ? You are referring to the Indians ? Now there is a religious belief system one can find humor in.
And this salient comment :
"I have for decades believed and publicly stated that there is something inherent in Christian fundamentalism that attracts individuals who are fleeing the impact of coming to terms with their sexual orientation, dealing with their own experiences of being sexually abused, or confronting other issues regarding sexuality and that fundamentalism not only draws such individuals but fosters their hypocrisy, thereby exacerbating their suffering and the suffering of everyone close to them."
Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 4867 Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
AlwaysThere wrote:
vision-master wrote:
AlwaysThere wrote:
dohboi wrote:
Great. Have fun rejoicing. But can you do it in a way that doesn't trash the planet, please?
Sure, perhaps you could write a letter to the Fortune 250 as well, How about just telling them to shut everything down.
I guess I have a question to people who think like you:
Do you enjoy being alive ? Chances are, without Industrial Civ, you would not even exist, so what right do you have to complain ?
Your true colors have been exposed - The Hopi's call your kind "two hearted".
VM, I hope you will not take offense when I proclaim you are a very easy person to ignore. I am happy to be alive, and also enjoy the benefits of our world.
The Hopi's ? You are referring to the Indians ? Now there is a religious belief system one can find humor in.
One not full of pride, arrogance, self admiration and importance, eh.
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