Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: Jun 02, 2008 Posts: 553 Location: Someplace where the sun does not shine
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:16 am Post subject: Re: Scientists to attempt to create black-holes
TheDude wrote:
cbxer55 wrote:
Over 20 years ago I read a science fiction book about this very thing, sorry I cannot remember the name. A small man-made black hole running loose around the world, gobbling things up.
Funny how reality catches up with the fiction many years later.
I somehow think this is kinda like Pandora's Box, best left unopened.
You're thinking of Earth, by Postman author David Brin.
Maaahhhh, could be Doc! I honestly do not remember. I have a big collection of books, but it is not amongst them. Maybe one of the ones I gave my sister and did not get back. Imagine that!
Joined: May 27, 2007 Posts: 1762 Location: The Post Peak Oil Historian
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: Scientists to attempt to create black-holes
From my reading we would only have a few minutes before we stopped existing...
Actually it would be virtually instantaneous, sucked in at half the speed of light.
They throw the switch, and if they were horribly wrong, they will never know it. _________________ In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell
It riles them to believe that you perceive the webs they weave. - Moody Blues
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Scientists to attempt to create black-holes
According to the LHC website they are in the final stages of cooldown which started on May 29th and should take 7 weeks. So it looks like they will be trying their first experiments in late July or early August. It would be quite ironic if all the fretting about global warming and peak oil was misdirected. It is also interesting how the particle theorist never get their chestnuts exposed to fire from professional skeptics. I guess there no Exxon funding...
Joined: Mar 05, 2006 Posts: 420 Location: East edge of the Milky Way
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:22 am Post subject: Re: Scientists to attempt to create black-holes
Here is the LHC site for those who are interested:http://www.lhcountdown.com/
As I understand it there are roughly thirteeen days until this monster is turned on, then about 2 months before the two particle beams are nudged together to collide. Pray no black holes, strangelets and such are produced...ever.
Alex. 'eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we may die'
On the other hand you guys are frightened of few TeV, what is really insignificant comparing to above.
Chicken Littles.
To exceed energy of cosmic rays already hitting the Earth we would neen accelerator of size of Solar System at least
And on the top of that all this BH hype is in all probabilities BS.
My bets in respect to LHC are as follows:
1. Higgs boson is not going to be detected and those who hope to discover it are going to be disappointed.
2. BH, regardless how small, is not going to be proven to exist.
3. Stable strange matter will not be produced.
4. Quantum vacuum phase transition is not going to materialize.
5. String/brane theories are not going to be experimentally proven.
6. It is unlikely that LHC will push particle physics beyond Standard Model, but lack of proven existence of Higgs boson will really be annoying in that context.
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Scientists to attempt to create black-holes
The two situation are completely different. In the ultra-high energy cosmic ray proton collision it is being slowed down but not brought to a complete dead stop. In the LHC they will have protons moving in opposite directions with equal momentum colliding in a dead stop.
The talk of microscopic black holes originates from the LHC people and other scientists, not the members of this board. The proton anti-proton collision inside the LHC can be considered a focusing of the energy into a confined space. The cosmic ray case cannot.
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Scientists to attempt to create black-holes
In addition to Brin's "Earth", Joe Hadleman also wrote about this topic as a subplot in "Forever Peace" (not to be confused "The Forever War"), where an collider was constructed by automated robotics in Jupiter orbit.
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Scientists to attempt to create black-holes
dissident wrote:
The two situation are completely different. In the ultra-high energy cosmic ray proton collision it is being slowed down but not brought to a complete dead stop. In the LHC they will have protons moving in opposite directions with equal momentum colliding in a dead stop.
It is overall, relativistic speed of collision what counts and it is not really important, will you get a dead stop situation as an outcome or not.
It is basic physics, also observed in Newtonian world.
Eg collision of moving car with 200mph against identical stationary car will be as devastating as head on collision of these cars traveling at 100mph each.
Yet you would get "dead stop" outcome only in second scenario.
The same principles applies in energetic particle collisions but considerations of special relativity have to be accounted for.
To say it in other words, cosmic rays collisions with atmospheric gases are creating locally far denser packets of energy, then LHC experiments ever will.
The difference would be in range of 8 orders of magnitude perhaps.
Quote:
The talk of microscopic black holes originates from the LHC people and other scientists, not the members of this board. The proton anti-proton collision inside the LHC can be considered a focusing of the energy into a confined space. The cosmic ray case cannot.
Yes, but for such situation to be possible at all, they [LHC scientists] need one extra dimension to begin unrolling at energies many orders of magnitude lower than expected by majority of particle physicists.
Such situation is unlikely to the extreme and additionally BH are rather a hype, then proven physical objects by now.
So for example there are claims that calculations based on GR are delivering BH alike solutions, once initial conditions (at input) are right.
However famous Schwartzchild's solution of GR equations came at substantial price:
BH delivered from this solution had a mass equaling zero.
It is still unresolved issue, could you get BH alike object of mass greater then zero base on GR considerations.
LHC experiments are unlikely to the extreme deliver any experimental evidence of BH existence.
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: Scientists to attempt to create black-holes
Cid_Yama wrote:
From my reading we would only have a few minutes before we stopped existing...
Actually it would be virtually instantaneous, sucked in at half the speed of light.
They throw the switch, and if they were horribly wrong, they will never know it.
Wrong.
If BH large enough to be able to grow further fallen on the Earth, it would travel to its center and start "digesting Earth" from inside.
For a while you would know nothing, then Earth would gradually deteriorate and turn into so called accretion disc.
You (as Cid Yama) would be gone in Earth deterioration phase but it could take few months or years before hole grew sufficiently to begin crushing (collapsing) of Earth surface.
Digestion of accretion disc would take many millions of years perhaps.
For throwing a switch and knowing nothing, they would have to cause quantum vacuum phase transition for example.
Joined: Mar 05, 2006 Posts: 420 Location: East edge of the Milky Way
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: Scientists to attempt to create black-holes
EnergyUnlimited, I believe I understand what you're saying( and I'm definately 'out of my league' when discussing astrophysics), but that being said is it not the concern that a BH could gain mass if it remains stable for a long enough period of time?
Also as the chaps at CERN have stated, there is a good probabilty(what % unknown) that their experiments would not be able to detect a BH even if one were created in their collider, hence the concern above that if one remained stable for long enough and gained mass, that well, we'd only know about it too late?
Not to mention strangelets and other potential assorted nasties(of which I am trying to learn about).
At what percentage is experimentation of this sort considered safe? And even going out on a limb and saying that yes, at some infitesimal percentage there is a probability of creating a BH, strangelet et al, who gives CERN the right to (potentially) decide the fate of humanity and all life of this planet, and the Earth itself.
I don't wish to come off as melodramatic, but I feel my and other peoples concern are more than a little bit valid. No?
Alex
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Scientists to attempt to create black-holes
FourOfSwords wrote:
Also as the chaps at CERN have stated, there is a good probabilty(what % unknown) that their experiments would not be able to detect a BH even if one were created in their collider, hence the concern above that if one remained stable for long enough and gained mass, that well, we'd only know about it too late?
In such scenario they could do nothing, even if they detected such BH at once.
Quote:
Not to mention strangelets and other potential assorted nasties(of which I am trying to learn about).
At what percentage is experimentation of this sort considered safe? And even going out on a limb and saying that yes, at some infitesimal percentage there is a probability of creating a BH, strangelet et al, who gives CERN the right to (potentially) decide the fate of humanity and all life of this planet, and the Earth itself.
All what we know from research regarding cosmic rays points out that risks are incredibly low because far more powerful events occurring round a clock in Earth atmosphere proven harmless for billions of years.
LHC will not do anything what Nature didn't already throw at us.
I personally believe that fate of humanity may well be decided somewhere in Monsanto, but not in CERN.
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: Scientists to attempt to create black-holes
You are missing the point, EnergyUnlimited. There are range-energy relations for high energy particles such as protons in various media. MeV protons from the Sun penetrate to the upper stratosphere. GeV cosmic rays penetrate to the troposphere. TeV and higher particles will penetrate increasingly deeper into the planet. That they move at relativistic speeds is only important for the energy levels they have. Instead of the brick wall you talk about there is a sequence of collisions that do *not* destroy the incident particle. In the LHC collision there is no gradual bleeding of the incident particle energy compared with the cosmic rays hitting the Earth. So the energy per unit volume is actually highest in the incident particle and it maintains its original volume (in its reference frame).
In the LHC direct collision case (particle vs anti-particle) the incident particles are *destroyed* in a very small volume of space and there is plenty of potential for the fragments to *increase* the density of matter-energy. The two situations are simply not physically equivalent.
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Scientists to attempt to create black-holes
Seems that humans found that destroy the earth with a continuous grown and the climate change is too slow, it´s better a giant apocalypse of gravity and destruction.
Also do it in the moon don´t help too much because if the moon is destroyed, the earth enviroment can have serious changes.
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