Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:32 am Post subject: Reduction in Grocery Bags Good or Bad???
Good or Bad is, of course, relative. I'm new to this; I've spent the last few weeks reading about recycling, reducing, and the many, many uses of crude oil. Maybe you can shed some light for me as I am no chemist...
Crude oil is extracted and refined. Naphtha is a result of the refining process. Naphtha is used to produce ethane, which is subsequently used to produce ethylene, and from ethylene- polyethylene, from which plastic bags derive. Sounds like the Old Testament.
Before discovering this I was under the basic impression- plastic comes from oil. Therefore, a reduction of plastic demand/production would result in more available oil for other uses- like gas for my car. My question is, is Naphtha an absolute product of the refining process? Can it be sacrificed at the refinery for an increase in petroleum gas production?
If not, unfortunately, I will be disappointed to realize that, although beneficial to the environment, a moratorium on plastic grocery bags would actually result in an increase in prices at the pumps. My understanding- no more plastic bags, demand for petrochemicals goes down, demand for Naphtha goes down, refineries make less on sale of Naphtha, price of petroleum gas goes up to offset the loss on Naphtha sales. Does this make sense? Please help!
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: Re: Reduction in Grocery Bags Good or Bad???
No, it makes no sense.
Welcome to PO.com.
Plastic bags are spit in a bucket - forget about plastic bags.
Think liquid fuel - diesel, gas, jet fuel, avgas, and so on.
By the way, my understanding is that the usual process is to take ethane from natural gas or from oil processing and process it into plastic. _________________ Massive Human Dieoff must occur as a result of Peak Oil. Many more than half will die. It will occur everywhere, including where you live. If you fail to recognize this, then your odds of living move toward the "going to die" group.
Joined: Sep 04, 2005 Posts: 443 Location: central MA, USA
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: Re: Reduction in Grocery Bags Good or Bad???
socrates1fan wrote:
My parents recently purchased some cloth bags. You wouldn't believe how much it reduces our garbage!
While I've always kept a couple dozen grocery-store plastic bags around, I'm actually starting to stockpile them in a big way now. They are extremely handy as liners in small trash cans, and for discarding the contents of a cat's litter box.
Someday I'll no longer get them for free. Maybe they'll be a valuable tradeable commodity before TS really HTF?
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13136 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Reduction in Grocery Bags Good or Bad???
Overall, reduction in plastic grocery bags is a very good thing. Even if they are handy for cleaning the catbox. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Joined: Aug 14, 2005 Posts: 398 Location: Mississippi Delta
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: Reduction in Grocery Bags Good or Bad???
As the caretaker of several miles of river and road frontage, I nominate all plastic packaging for oblivion. _________________ Sarah Palin: Because what we really need right now is another inexperienced, inarticulate, personable, fundamentalist governor of an oil-dependent state for president.
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Reduction in Grocery Bags Good or Bad???
I have so many walmart bags that I started insulating my ceiling with the things. I stuff a dozen bags into a single bag, toss the package in the crawlspace. I have covered half the living room so far. _________________ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--for ever."
-George Orwell, 1984
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Reduction in Grocery Bags Good or Bad???
rawdealmonty wrote:
My understanding- no more plastic bags, demand for petrochemicals goes down, demand for Naphtha goes down, refineries make less on sale of Naphtha, price of petroleum gas goes up to offset the loss on Naphtha sales. Does this make sense? Please help!
Hmmm... Wouldn't the loss of jobs at these plastic bag factories cause the demand for oil to go down and therefore reduce the price, too?
Seems like a wash of insignificance to me as far as oil prices goes. But a boon for the long-term environment. When these carcinogenic bags are slowly broken down by the ocean and eaten by fish and then enter our food supply, well, that is insane.
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:36 am Post subject: Re: Reduction in Grocery Bags Good or Bad???
socrates1fan wrote:
My parents recently purchased some cloth bags.
You wouldn't believe how much it reduces our garbage!
I purchased cloth bags for $1 each at our local supermarket. They're great because you can put so much more in one bag and they're easier to pack than the plastic bags (more stable).
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Reduction in Grocery Bags Good or Bad???
I still am very interested in knowing if Naphtha is an absolute product of the refining process? Can it be sacrificed at the refinery for an increase in petroleum gas production? Is ethane primarily refined from natural gas for use in polyethylene production?
Also, Cashmere wrote "Plastic bags are spit in a bucket - forget about plastic bags."
Well, plastic bags are not the largest polyethylene product out there. However, they may be the widest distributed and discarded on a daily basis, which amounts to a lot of waste of valuable oil/natural gas resources and waste in landfills, rivers, streets, etc.
BTW, I've owned and taken to the store re-usable bags for the past 6 months- they're great. At the moment, politicians, the general public, etc. seem only interested in doing what's "green" if it will decrease digits at the pump- this goes for McCain and Obama! I'm simply trying to figure out whether this is a viable action in that battle. Although, I believe high gas prices are ultimately good because they will lead to innovations in efficiency and alternative energy sources that the "cheap" gas of the 90's halted.
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: Reduction in Grocery Bags Good or Bad???
jimmyz wrote:
bags are just costing stores too much now. it's their way to kill two birds with one stone.
cost of plastic bags has doubled
plastic re-useable bags (made in China) cost the customer a dollar
we throw the "re-cycleable" plastic in the compactor, as they won't take colors (although we have a bin for "re-cycling")
the store makes/saves money and the customer "feels good about themselves"
win/win
and as I read on this thread earlier, the average amerikan thinks their responsibility to the enviroment is to get their green re-usable bag and get in their SUV and drive three blocks to the grocery store.
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