Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: Sep 16, 2004 Posts: 4898 Location: Southwest WI
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: GM, Ford, and Chrysler Death Watch Thread
Hawk-
I agree with you 100%, but if you don't have any money, how are you suppose to pay? A family member (through marriage) works for Chrysler here in WI. I haven't talked to him lately, but next time i'll have to see how things are. I know he was going to take a buyout or something last time i saw him. I know his wife works retail and i doubt has anything for retirement...i'm guessing both are counting on his.
If your an employee with a little common sense, i think the writing has been on the walls for a few years.
The worse part is the upper management clowns that still get paid gobs of money to destroy a company. Nothing new here in the land of the free, home of the brave. _________________ Clothing should be optional.
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: GM, Ford, and Chrysler Death Watch Thread
Dan1195 wrote:
Their most obvious mistake is that that they all assumed 3-4 years ago that the initial rises in the price of oil were temporary. This widely held belief was combined with the booming sales of large trucks and SUV's by a general public that likewise believed this to be the case. ..
Due to the significant lead time between initial concepts of models and model improvements and the availability of said model in their showroom, most stuff on the lot today was meant for $1.50/gallon gasoline.
Well, I recall hearing how Chrysler at least had fitured how to bring a vehicle from concption on the "drawing board" - actually a CAD screen - into physical production in like 2.5 - 3 years. I recall Lee Iacocca bragging about that way back int he late 80's. So, what we are seeing today as "new" was conceived about the time of Hurricane Katrina. With all their crackerjack economists and deft executive talent, you say they could not have foreseen peak oil? Hell, I knew about peak oil back in 2002 when the Globe and Mail Report on Business magazine had a long article about it, which I researched and came to see the light. I am just regular engineer, not a multi-million a year executive. So, how could I have seen it, and they did not?
They must have been asleep at the switch or something.
By the way, reading that article was maybe the best hour investment of my time ever. It has given me so much insight into market expectations. It has led me to put my limited investments into the right places and take a modest pool of savings into something to retire on.
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: GM, Ford, and Chrysler Death Watch Thread
Denny wrote:
With all their crackerjack economists and deft executive talent, you say they could not have foreseen peak oil? Hell, I knew about peak oil back in 2002 when the Globe and Mail Report on Business magazine had a long article about it, which I researched and came to see the light. I am just regular engineer, not a multi-million a year executive. So, how could I have seen it, and they did not?
They must have been asleep at the switch or something.
Chrysler is an embarrassment right now, and on death's door. Walk into a Chrysler showroom today, and the most efficient vehicle they can show you (a Caliber) gets not a whit better gas mileage than a carbureted 1981 Aries K-Car. Except that the K-Car was actually a pretty roomy 5 passenger car (and was available as a wagon). The Caliber, not so much.
That's not to say they weren't making plans for an oil crunch. Five years ago, DaimlerChrysler expected that by today, every Dodge showroom in Podunk, Middle America would sell and warranty the Daimler Smart car, as well as a lineup of smaller captive imports from China (probably Chery Automotive).
Both those deals fell through, for many reasons, leaving Chrysler to sell the bigger vehicles (that they had planned to keep making in North America), and scrambling to put together some warmed-over crap in the car market. Had both deals succeeded, Chrysler (as a very different company) would be doing better than the rest right now. _________________ At 1% annual growth, human bodies will incorporate every gram in the observable universe in approximately 10,170 years.
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:46 pm Post subject: Re: GM, Ford, and Chrysler Death Watch Thread
The UAW wrecked the American auto companies slowly and steadily. Being in skilled trades i have worked in union shops and non union and i can tell you union guys are lazy,overpaid and have a "I deserve it attitude"
Autoworkers are overpaid and as Jeremiah Wright said "The chickens have come home to roost"
Combine that with the ridiculous laws and restrictions imposed on US companies and its a losing battle.
Joined: Nov 01, 2005 Posts: 846 Location: Euro high horse bastard on the run
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:03 am Post subject: Re: GM, Ford, and Chrysler Death Watch Thread
Deferred Karma payback finally?
1/ Big oil, big tire, and Detroit => conspired in the 1940/50s to destroy streetcar/tram system all across the U.S. There has been court case on this one, it's well documented.
2/ Big oil, CARB, Detroit and the bushevik junta killed the full EVs in the mid 90s - early 2000s. And yes it was ~$40k "luxury" low volume segment but with spillover potential on the entire fleet.
3/ Respiratory diseases, highway-concrete madness, suburbia, oil-spills, funding the ME feudal royal houses, during all those decades etc..
Detroit and oilly pals won't be missed at all..
--
The Ford co. is the least evil of this bunch but only by a tiny notch,
so they might stay afloat the longest and/or reinvent themselves in some asian cross-ownership riksha type deal..
--
PS to blame this hubris primarily on UAWs is just beyond stupid ridiculous, it's like blaming the two bushevik presidential terms on the voters, yes they have participated and later not mass rioted, but as the exit polls/election irregularity studies have clearly shown, the voters in majority did not vote for this gang.. _________________ DOOMerotron: at all-time high [8.1] out of 10..
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:36 am Post subject: Re: GM, Ford, and Chrysler Death Watch Thread
gunny7258 wrote:
The UAW wrecked the American auto companies slowly and steadily. Being in skilled trades i have worked in union shops and non union and i can tell you union guys are lazy,overpaid and have a "I deserve it attitude"
Autoworkers are overpaid and as Jeremiah Wright said "The chickens have come home to roost"
Combine that with the ridiculous laws and restrictions imposed on US companies and its a losing battle.
Some of that is true, wages cold likely have been 20% lower for several decades and still have attracted and retained just as many workers.
But, what keeps getting overlooked is the profligate capital spending goofs of these companies. Buying all kinds of peripheral companies when times were good, as both Ford and GM did
(such as EDS and Hughes Aerospace) and ill thought out investments in the 1980's by GM. GM invested $40 billion in new plants and equipment in the 80's, only to write off half of that. Just their write-offs worked out to about $50,000 per U.S. worker over the 80's. So, its hard to believe the unions would have moderated wage demands, seeing the excesses going on all around them.
You may recall Ross Perot of EDS, was on the GM board after its purchase of EDS. But, Perot could not fit in. Nor could GM adjust to Perot's entrepreneurial spirit, thought they initially welcomed him just for that reason. It bothered him that none of the GM execs faced the car purchasing routines that GM's customers did. They did not have a grasp of that most important part of the business. They even dined separately from the other staff of the company. As Ross saw it, GM executives had isolated themselves and became remote from their workers and their customers, just as the French royalty isolated themselves from the citizens before the Revolution.
Perhaps, we are now witnessing the GM revolution. Thankfully, for the executives sake, they will not have to face the guillotine. Maybe just a metaphorical one.
Joined: Feb 20, 2005 Posts: 2886 Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: Re: GM, Ford, and Chrysler Death Watch Thread
frankthetank wrote:
The state still has an excellent fruit growing operation. Peaches, plums, cherries, etc.
Quote:
GM market cap ($6.5B) is worth about 30% less than southwest airlines ($9.9B) (LUV) .... Right now, I think Southwest is the better investment, wow.
Quote by someone over on marketwatch. Pretty sad.
GM pretty much has to file bankruptcy? They can't afford to keep paying all those retires benefits/etc.
Saudi Arabia could buy GM in a week and SW in ten days, using only oil export income! _________________ Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
Joined: Feb 20, 2005 Posts: 2886 Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:44 am Post subject: Re: GM, Ford, and Chrysler Death Watch Thread
BigTex wrote:
I am virtually certain that GM will seek bankruptcy protection fairly soon. One of the immense benefits GM would see from this move would be that it would enable it to jettison virtually all of its retiree medical and some of its pension plan costs.
In many ways GM is the perfect candidate for bankruptcy protection, since one of the best features of bankruptcy for a company like that is it can basically reject all of its non-core contracts--i.e., all of its contracts with individuals who are no longer working.
It would also give GM the opportunity to re-negotiate all of its current agreements with union employees, which would undoubtedly mean lower wages and fewer benefits for those who did get to keep their jobs.
Why on earth did GM not see this fuel price situation coming for the last five years (at least)? I have no idea. It boggles my mind that GM just wandered down the big truck and SUV road, apparently never considering what a rapid increase in gas prices would do to that business.
Amazing.
What's amazing is the kind of bankruptcy protection US companies get, especially from health and pension liabilities.
Amazing. _________________ Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
Joined: Sep 16, 2004 Posts: 4898 Location: Southwest WI
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: Re: GM, Ford, and Chrysler Death Watch Thread
Old Man McCain and McBama...
Quote:
Detroit's calls for help from Washington are gaining some traction, as both Republican John McCain and Democrat Barack Obama this week let auto-industry executives share the spotlight in their presidential campaigns, and suggested they'd lend auto makers a hand.
During a meeting Friday at a General Motors Corp. small-car factory in Lordstown, Ohio, Sen. McCain said he doesn't support a "classic" bailout of the ailing domestic car companies, but he laid out initiatives to help.
"It depends on what you mean by a bailout," he said. "If you're talking about it in the classic terms, I'm afraid not."
But the Arizona Republican said he would offer a spate of tax incentives and infrastructure support aimed at encouraging innovation of more fuel-efficient products and expanding availability of alternative fuel. He vowed to get involved in enforcing trade deals that may disadvantage auto companies trying to export cars and parts.
Quote:
On Thursday. Sen. Obama moderated a panel of business leaders that included GM Chief Executive Rick Wagoner. Mr. Obama, who last year scolded Detroit for failing to focus on fuel efficiency, struck a more sympathetic tone.
"Obviously all of you realize the market has changed so you have every incentive to do so but you may need some bridges to help get there," Sen. Obama said. Mr. Wagoner said he left the meeting encouraged by Sen. Obama's questions and willingness to help. The company is encouraged by Sen. Obama's plan to invest $150 billion in green technology ideas, many of which affect the U.S. auto industry.
Maybe GM should just retool and build scooters. _________________ Clothing should be optional.
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: Re: GM, Ford, and Chrysler Death Watch Thread
Remember during the prosperous times of the 1990's and a little after, the profit sharing the big 3 had with the UAW was, well for them, great. Every time I saw a Chevy Suburban or Ford Excursion barreling down the freeway I would laugh, "Hey, you just gave $12K to the UAW worker that year you bought that "SUV".
Even the Japaneses and European manufactures caught on to the huge profit margins on big, luxury vehicles. Dealing with manufacturing cost while I was working for the auto industry, the true manufacturing cost and labor cost is only a few $K more for a big vehicle versus an econ box.
Most car manufactures lost almost $1K per vehicle to sell an econ box. The stats were out there on this. If they tried to sell at true cost with a little profit, many in the low income bracket would be price out of the market. So the auto companies recouped the lost by sell the big luxury vehicles at huge profit margins. The perception of the general public is: if the vehicle is 2X the size, it must cost the car companies 2X the price to produce it. Ever so wrong.
Tack on the "luxury" label and now it is 3X. Why did Honda start the Acura line, Toyota the Lexus line, Nissan the Infinity line? They learned the big 3 method of GM with Cadillac, Ford with Lincoln. A Cadillac is just a stretched out Chevy Impala when you get down to it. A Lexus is just a fluff and puff Camry with added sound deadening materials and upgraded materials for maybe $1K more.
So when working for the industry, people would ask me "Hey, what is the best car for the money?" Even while working for Japaneses manufacturer, I would reply: A Dodge Neon. Chrysler lost money on the car, so giving to profit, it was priced the lowest, lower than a Civic. You got the most for your money. We did benchmarking on the Neon when it came out and the Japanese manufactures learned to squeeze more money out of their car. A lot of cost savings was needed to off set the constant federal regulation for safety and emissions. Back in the mid 90's, every car had a federal compliance penalty of $4500 tacked on to the sticker price, whether it was an econ box or a luxury boat. Hate to see the price tag today with added things like side impact, air bags to sky heaven, and tighter emissions since then.
Now that the market needs and demands smaller, more efficient cars, the auto industry is screwed. Wards Automotive, the trade magazine for the industry, claims that it would be realistic that the price tag will be $40k for a vehicle to recoup all the cost to produce a vehicle. Even the Japanese manufacturers are scrambling on this since their costs are now almost matching GM's costs (estimated now at only about $100 difference). Ouch, never ends. _________________ THE SIMPLE LIFE: One frozen pond, a few sticks, a little round puck, and a bunch of rowdy kids.
Joined: Sep 16, 2004 Posts: 4898 Location: Southwest WI
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:29 am Post subject: Re: GM, Ford, and Chrysler Death Watch Thread
A Dodge Neon? Didn't they have a horrible problem with blowing head gaskets (like so bad there should have been a recall)? A buddy had a Neon RT back in the late 90's and while it was a fast/efficient car, he had nothing but problems with it. Last i know it was dead and he bought an Acura.
I will say that the Ford Escort was a decent car. I use to drive a 4 door/auto for a job i had and i would have to make trips to Madison with it. While maintaining a solid 80mph, i'd still get upper 30's to the gallon. U still see a ton of the older ones on the road, so they must have been built decent. _________________ Clothing should be optional.
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:23 am Post subject: Re: GM, Ford, and Chrysler Death Watch Thread
frankthetank wrote:
A Dodge Neon? Didn't they have a horrible problem with blowing head gaskets (like so bad there should have been a recall)? A buddy had a Neon RT back in the late 90's and while it was a fast/efficient car, he had nothing but problems with it. Last i know it was dead and he bought an Acura.
I will say that the Ford Escort was a decent car. I use to drive a 4 door/auto for a job i had and i would have to make trips to Madison with it. While maintaining a solid 80mph, i'd still get upper 30's to the gallon. U still see a ton of the older ones on the road, so they must have been built decent.
No agreement on the questioning about the Neon. It was at that time the best for the "MONEY' since the Chrysler lost money on the car and it was the lowest priced vehicle at that time. It was the "best for the money". Take what they give. Just an up graded Model T with a radio. Yep, quality problems up the yang-yang but got good mileage and such.
Ford Escort was out of the picture by then, but when I graduated from college in '88, bought a new Escort GT. Loved the car, sad that hardly any one makes hatch back here in the states. Love to have a 5 door hatchback like those European car companies make. Drop a TDi in it and my old TDi will go off to the pasture. Or put it on eBay and watch the crazies over bid each other over a worn out diesel. _________________ THE SIMPLE LIFE: One frozen pond, a few sticks, a little round puck, and a bunch of rowdy kids.
Joined: Sep 16, 2004 Posts: 4898 Location: Southwest WI
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: Re: GM, Ford, and Chrysler Death Watch Thread
Ford has always had the smarts to use Madza motors in a few cars. My Focus right now has a Madza motor. Ford also put a Madza motor in the newer Ranger. I think they are called Duratech or something. Efficient motors with decent gas mileage. Mine avg exactly 30mpg over the last 330 miles and thats all city driving. Not bad for a tall, roomy car with an auto. _________________ Clothing should be optional.
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