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PeakingAroundtheCorner
Heavy Crude
Joined: Apr 08, 2007
Posts: 480
Location: Cleburne, TX, USA
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 Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: Merc(edes Benz) plan fuel seven year ditch |
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| The Sun wrote: |
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/motors/phil_lanning/article1314732.ece
MERCEDES are aiming to end the need for filling your fuel tank with petrol or diesel within just SEVEN YEARS.
The German firm are determined to make their model range run on alternative fuels - to improve costs, become more eco-friendly and because the oil supply will eventually run out.
-snip-
The company have already spent £2million on their new long-term Sustainable Mobility plan and are set to invest a further £7billion before 2014.
This includes making current engines even cleaner and more fuel-efficient while increasing the amount of hybrids, emission-free electric cars and clean-fuel gas engines and the further development of battery and hydrogen-powered vehicles.
-snip-
The company’s next big step will be to launch a Smart electric car which is fuel and emission-free.
There are currently 100 Smart electric cars being given trials in London and they could be on the market as soon as 2010.
-snip-
Professor Dr Herbert Kohler, responsible for Mercedes’ advanced engineering, told me he believes that by 2015 motorists will have switched almost completely to alternative fuel cars, certainly in cities, to eliminate the need for petrol and diesel in urban areas. |
Wow. Good for them. Hope that works out for 'em.
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ohanian
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
Posts: 1089
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Merc(edes Benz) plan fuel seven year ditch |
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Let me guess, in seven years times most cars will run of Petrol Vapor!!!
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Specop_007
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Joined: Aug 12, 2004
Posts: 6235
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: Merc(edes Benz) plan fuel seven year ditch |
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I'm finding that hard to believe......Is MB really that forward thinking??
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Waterthrush
Heavy Crude
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Joined: Jun 03, 2005
Posts: 216
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: Merc(edes Benz) plan fuel seven year ditch |
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| Do you think this referred to diesel as well as gasoline-fueled engines? |
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cephalotus
Heavy Crude
Joined: Sep 18, 2007
Posts: 111
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Merc(edes Benz) plan fuel seven year ditch |
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| Specop_007 wrote: | | I'm finding that hard to believe......Is MB really that forward thinking?? |
adopt or die. |
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Plantagenet
Expert
Joined: Apr 09, 2007
Posts: 5899
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: Merc(edes Benz) plan fuel seven year ditch |
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| PeakingAroundtheCorner wrote: | | a Smart electric car which is fuel and emission-free. |
Think again.
The fuel is electricity.
The emissions associated with running the electric car are released at the powerplant which is generating the electricity.
If it is a coal-fired electrical powerplant, the CO2 emissions are even greater then they would be for a gasoline-powered car.  |
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Tyler_JC
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Joined: Sep 25, 2004
Posts: 4543
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: Merc(edes Benz) plan fuel seven year ditch |
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| Plantagenet wrote: | | PeakingAroundtheCorner wrote: | | a Smart electric car which is fuel and emission-free. |
Think again.
The fuel is electricity.
The emissions associated with running the electric car are released at the powerplant which is generating the electricity.
If it is a coal-fired electrical powerplant, the CO2 emissions are even greater then they would be for a gasoline-powered car. |
I don't buy your last line. I've seen estimates that say even with a coal fired power plant, emissions would be at least 50% lower.
Also, isn't it easier to control a thousand power plants than a billion cars?
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Homesteader
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Apr 12, 2007
Posts: 1172
Location: Central NC
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: Merc(edes Benz) plan fuel seven year ditch |
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| Waterthrush wrote: | | Do you think this referred to diesel as well as gasoline-fueled engines? |
Yes, first line of the article referred to "petrol and diesel. . ."
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Mesuge
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Nov 01, 2005
Posts: 834
Location: Euro high horse bastard on the run
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: Merc(edes Benz) plan fuel seven year ditch |
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Yes, it's clear that most of the fat cats in the US/EU/JAP will drive plugins and/or full electrics by 2015, on the other hand the J6P will be neatly boxed in with ever spiralling expenses on other survival items unable to plunk down > $40k (today's dollar value) for highway capable EV..
The question remains, will there be any individual passanger car industry by 2025 at all?
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Plantagenet
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Joined: Apr 09, 2007
Posts: 5899
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:46 pm Post subject: Re: Merc(edes Benz) plan fuel seven year ditch |
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| Tyler_JC wrote: | | Plantagenet wrote: | | PeakingAroundtheCorner wrote: | | a Smart electric car which is fuel and emission-free. |
Think again.
The fuel is electricity.
The emissions associated with running the electric car are released at the powerplant which is generating the electricity.
If it is a coal-fired electrical powerplant, the CO2 emissions are even greater then they would be for a gasoline-powered car. |
I don't buy your last line. I've seen estimates that say even with a coal fired power plant, emissions would be at least 50% lower. |
I double-checked at TheOilDrum.com to get the precise figures.
(1) High grade coal releases about 15% more CO2 then is released by using gasoline to generate an equivalent amount of energy to move a car, i.e.
Fuel Tonnes of carbon per GWh
Coal 238
Oil 207
(2) Electricity distributed from a central coal-fired power plant to electrical cars must travel over electrical power lines. Typical energy losses during transmission run about 7-8%. This requires still more coal to be burnt at the generating station to produce the same amount of energy.....
(3) Combining (1) and (2) indicates that about 22-23% MORE CO2 would be released to run an electric car powered by a coal-fired electrical power plant then would be released by using gasoline to power the same car.
(4) The amount of extra CO2 released is even greater when the power plants generate electricity using low grade coal or lignite, as electrical power plants do in Germany and China, as lignite and low grade coal release even less energy when combusted. |
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SteinarN
Tar Sands
Joined: Sep 20, 2007
Posts: 95
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:05 am Post subject: Re: Merc(edes Benz) plan fuel seven year ditch |
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| Plantagenet wrote: | I double-checked at TheOilDrum.com to get the precise figures.
(1) High grade coal releases about 15% more CO2 then is released by using gasoline to generate an equivalent amount of energy to move a car, i.e.
Fuel Tonnes of carbon per GWh
Coal 238
Oil 207
(2) Electricity distributed from a central coal-fired power plant to electrical cars must travel over electrical power lines. Typical energy losses during transmission run about 7-8%. This requires still more coal to be burnt at the generating station to produce the same amount of energy.....
(3) Combining (1) and (2) indicates that about 22-23% MORE CO2 would be released to run an electric car powered by a coal-fired electrical power plant then would be released by using gasoline to power the same car.
(4) The amount of extra CO2 released is even greater when the power plants generate electricity using low grade coal or lignite, as electrical power plants do in Germany and China, as lignite and low grade coal release even less energy when combusted. |
This cant possibly be correct. Your initial numbers, coal 238 and oil 207 tonnes carbonper GWh may very well be correct when comparing coal fired power plant with an gasoline engine running at maximum efficiency. Maximum efficiency is acheived at medium RPM and full load. (flored throttle)
In real life however, a gasoline engine is running at a dismal efficiency, particularly in city driving when running at very low load setting and also does alot of idling with zero efficiency.
The maximum efficiency of a gasoline engine may be roughly 35 to 40%. This is comparable to the efficiency of a coal fired power plant. However, as the real life efficiency of a gasoline engine only is in the range of say 10% to at best 25%, a gasoline engine will have a CO2 emission greatly exceding that of a coal fired power plant producint the same amount of power to move the car, even acounting the power loss from transmission. Further more, an electric car will also regenerate a large amount of the power lost when a normal car is breaking, in the same way as a hybrid is doing today. An electric car will therby further lower the required power consumption compared to a gasoline powered car. The end real life result is that the power generation from a coal fired power plant necessary to move an electric car will emit significantly less CO2 than the internal gasoline engine of todays cars.
This difference could however be reduced if todays cars had a very small engine, say 30 to 50 Hp in stead of 200 Hp, and preferably a modern turbo diesel also.
Last edited by SteinarN on Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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alokin
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Aug 24, 2007
Posts: 792
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:08 am Post subject: Re: Merc(edes Benz) plan fuel seven year ditch |
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That story is hard to believe as Mercedes Benz is the most conservative car maker I can think of and until now all what they are
building are gas guzzlers.
If I remember correctly the smart was planned as an electric vehicle. |
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cephalotus
Heavy Crude
Joined: Sep 18, 2007
Posts: 111
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:59 am Post subject: Re: Merc(edes Benz) plan fuel seven year ditch |
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| Plantagenet wrote: |
If it is a coal-fired electrical powerplant, the CO2 emissions are even greater then they would be for a gasoline-powered car. :) |
The Renault Twingo is also available as an electric vehicle (in small numbers)
The electric version uses 16kWh of energy per 100km vs. 6,5l of petrol that the gas version consumes
A modern coal plant (lignite) has CO2 emissions of ~1000g CO2/kWh (powerplant to plug), 1l petrol (from the gas station) releases roughly 2500g CO2.
that makes 160g CO2/km for the electric vehicle vs. 163g CO2/km for the gasoline vehicle in that special case.
A good reason not to use 100% electricity from coal plants but to use an energy mix containing ideally lots of renewables like wind. |
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Plantagenet
Expert
Joined: Apr 09, 2007
Posts: 5899
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Merc(edes Benz) plan fuel seven year ditch |
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| SteinarN wrote: | | an electric car will also regenerate a large amount of the power lost when a normal car is breaking, in the same way as a hybrid is doing today. |
Thats nice, but hybrids today are gasoline powered. The energy they are recapturing is generated by gasoline combustion. The energy savings you imagine will be available to electric cars in the future is already available to gasoline powered cars today, so there is no net advantage from power recovered from braking to electric cars powered by coal-fired plants over gasoline cars recovering power from braking. |
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SteinarN
Tar Sands
Joined: Sep 20, 2007
Posts: 95
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Merc(edes Benz) plan fuel seven year ditch |
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| Plantagenet wrote: | | SteinarN wrote: | | an electric car will also regenerate a large amount of the power lost when a normal car is breaking, in the same way as a hybrid is doing today. |
Thats nice, but hybrids today are gasoline powered. The energy they are recapturing is generated by gasoline combustion. The energy savings you imagine will be available to electric cars in the future is already available to gasoline powered cars today, so there is no net advantage from power recovered from braking to electric cars powered by coal-fired plants over gasoline cars recovering power from braking. |
How the energy is originaly generated isn't of any importance for the posibility to recapture it. My point is that an electric car and a hybrid car can recapture breaking energy. A normal gasolin driven car can not. |
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