For a minute there I thought I had to get off my couch, when all the while the fact is we don't have to do anything much but keep things afloat for just a few decades more! In fact, we'd best shut up about PO, because if our offspring finds out we knew about it all along, they'll turn and wring our necks come 2036!
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: Re: Rural laments
Ludi wrote:
MrBean wrote:
Please explain.
The majority of intentional communities fail.
I encourage people to get the book "Creating a Life Together" by Diana Leafe Christian, which describes how to create a successful community and avoid the pitfalls that lead to failure.
I'm fairly constantly promoting the idea of community being necessary for survival in the future (and for well-being today), but I understand the difficulty of making it work. I have even tried to start an intentional community myself, with such lack of success I quickly gave up.
I have a fairly realistic view about the difficulties and obstacles involved in getting a group of people working together for common good and in harmony with their enviroment. I subscribe to many of the views labelled by term "anarcho-primitivism" but I believe what gets often forgotten in that camp is what really made and makes a "primitive" community work: service of a dedicated shaman/medicin man. Reviving that bond between a community of men and a real shaman is not an easy call in these modern times.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12009 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: Rural laments
I know only one shaman (he was trained by another shaman). I think "real" shaman are hard to come by.
Most people these days would think they are loons.
Most people don't want a loon in their community.... _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1195 Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Rural laments
Ludi wrote:
I know only one shaman (he was trained by another shaman). I think "real" shaman are hard to come by.
Most people these days would think they are loons.
Most people don't want a loon in their community....
The shaman doesn't have to advertise him/herself as such. The role could be played by anyone involved in the community life: a teacher, an older grandfather/mother figure who volunteers in some community facility, the local shopkeeper who likes a good gossip and is concerned with the community. They don't have to be obvious to play the role effectively. Just be known as someone who helps, gives good advice, can tell a good story, can be trusted with secrets, can be trusted with people when they're hurting. _________________ Kind regards, Katkinkate
"The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops,
but the cultivation and perfection of human beings."
Masanobu Fukuoka
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: Rural laments
katkinkate wrote:
The shaman doesn't have to advertise him/herself as such. The role could be played by anyone involved in the community life: a teacher, an older grandfather/mother figure who volunteers in some community facility, the local shopkeeper who likes a good gossip and is concerned with the community. They don't have to be obvious to play the role effectively. Just be known as someone who helps, gives good advice, can tell a good story, can be trusted with secrets, can be trusted with people when they're hurting.
True. Bolded with a good friend in mind.
Another good friend bangs the drum, dresses funnily for the occations, appearsh to "command" the powers of nature in when "cool" and appropriate, takes patients, the works.
Joined: Aug 26, 2005 Posts: 393 Location: Windy City No Longer
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Rural laments
Thuja has a point. It takes money be mobile. I left Chicago for the hinterlands of Michigan. I've thoroughly enjoyed the change, and contrary to common wisdom, I reduced my commute my moving to the schtix. On the other hand, it wasn't cheap. Since I was moving of my own volition, I had to pay for movers. I'm constantly finding "farm gear" I didn't know existed (let alone, know I needed), and I'm trying to rehab my old house and barn in addition to replacing fences, refurbing pasture, planting trees, etc.
That said, you don't have to do it this way. You can do it alot cheaper, you just have to do it differently. It will still cost you something, but it can be done. 5 acres and a double wide around here are $55-$80K. That's pretty cheap. _________________ TANSTAAFL
Joined: Oct 15, 2005 Posts: 1472 Location: Portland, Oregon
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: Rural laments
benzoil wrote:
Thuja has a point. It takes money be mobile. I left Chicago for the hinterlands of Michigan. I've thoroughly enjoyed the change, and contrary to common wisdom, I reduced my commute my moving to the schtix. On the other hand, it wasn't cheap. Since I was moving of my own volition, I had to pay for movers. I'm constantly finding "farm gear" I didn't know existed (let alone, know I needed), and I'm trying to rehab my old house and barn in addition to replacing fences, refurbing pasture, planting trees, etc.
That said, you don't have to do it this way. You can do it alot cheaper, you just have to do it differently. It will still cost you something, but it can be done. 5 acres and a double wide around here are $55-$80K. That's pretty cheap.
I agree- it can be done - but the problem is finding and holding a job in the sticks when the never ending recession hits. For those with a lot of extra money (retirees with inflation proof assets?) this is a lot easier. But most younger folks need to hold down a job. Even if you can go on an extremely tight budget, you will still need money for staples, farm equipment, infrastructure, etc etc.
So impossible? No. Extremely difficult without quite a bit of money and the ability to live without a job.
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:45 pm Post subject: Re: Rural laments
The primary 'job' for those living in the hinterlands was traditionally something referred to as 'farming'. Other occupations generally included those that support 'farming'. Unfortunately by the time a large demand for the products of traditional 'farming' again arises, it may likely be a bit late for the needed number of 'farmers' to become established... _________________ "It means buckle your seatbelt, Dorothy, because Kansas? Is goin' bye-bye... "
Joined: Oct 15, 2005 Posts: 1472 Location: Portland, Oregon
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:09 am Post subject: Re: Rural laments
Actually it surprises me how much we talk about the little rural farmers here and there- the CSAs and all that. They are a tiny drop in the ocean. And the ocean is Big Ag.
It is Big Ag that is going to have to radically change. They will eventually be facing fertilizer andgasoline shortages. How will they react to that? Will they shift towards organic, increased human and farm animal labor to produce crops?
Or will they go bankrupt en masse and sell off their holdings to the little people?
This is the million dollar question because they produce 99% of our food.
At first they will try and pass on the cost to the consumer but at a certain point their model will no longer work economically. Just as the Airline industry is radically and quickly changing, the food industry will go through a massive shift as well.
I'm very interested to see how they try and transform...
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:50 am Post subject: Re: Rural laments
thuja wrote:
Actually it surprises me how much we talk about the little rural farmers here and there- the CSAs and all that. They are a tiny drop in the ocean. And the ocean is Big Ag.
It is Big Ag that is going to have to radically change. They will eventually be facing fertilizer andgasoline shortages. How will they react to that? Will they shift towards organic, increased human and farm animal labor to produce crops?
Or will they go bankrupt en masse and sell off their holdings to the little people?
This is the million dollar question because they produce 99% of our food.
At first they will try and pass on the cost to the consumer but at a certain point their model will no longer work economically. Just as the Airline industry is radically and quickly changing, the food industry will go through a massive shift as well.
I'm very interested to see how they try and transform...
Indeed thuja.
Something more to ponder is the fact that any land that has been under the control of Big Ag for any length of time is largely 'dead', productive only as long as the fossil-fuel inputs continue. Even if they were to sell it off to the 'little people', it would take a significant number of seasons to return the soil to productivity utilizing the sustainable practices of yesteryear. What do we eat in the meantime I wonder... _________________ "It means buckle your seatbelt, Dorothy, because Kansas? Is goin' bye-bye... "
Joined: Aug 26, 2005 Posts: 393 Location: Windy City No Longer
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:10 am Post subject: Re: Rural laments
thuja wrote:
benzoil wrote:
Thuja has a point. It takes money be mobile. I left Chicago for the hinterlands of Michigan. I've thoroughly enjoyed the change, and contrary to common wisdom, I reduced my commute my moving to the schtix. On the other hand, it wasn't cheap. Since I was moving of my own volition, I had to pay for movers. I'm constantly finding "farm gear" I didn't know existed (let alone, know I needed), and I'm trying to rehab my old house and barn in addition to replacing fences, refurbing pasture, planting trees, etc.
That said, you don't have to do it this way. You can do it alot cheaper, you just have to do it differently. It will still cost you something, but it can be done. 5 acres and a double wide around here are $55-$80K. That's pretty cheap.
I agree- it can be done - but the problem is finding and holding a job in the sticks when the never ending recession hits. For those with a lot of extra money (retirees with inflation proof assets?) this is a lot easier. But most younger folks need to hold down a job. Even if you can go on an extremely tight budget, you will still need money for staples, farm equipment, infrastructure, etc etc.
So impossible? No. Extremely difficult without quite a bit of money and the ability to live without a job.
There are jobs out here. Really. In fact, even in the never ending recession that is Michigan there are still some jobs around here. Even ones in manufacturing. I'm a long way from retirement. So is my wife. We both found good white collar jobs within 5 miles of where we live. I'll never make as much as when I was doing IT consulting in Chicago, but it's money enough. When we decided to move here and put our house up for sale, neither of us had a job lined up. We just did it.
There will always be situations in which you can't do what you want. Too much debt. Too little saved. Health concerns. More often than not though, there are also excuses. "I couldn't afford the cut in pay." "I couldn't find a job in my field." "I can't afford x, y , z." The truth is that most of us don't want to change. We just like to daydream about it.
Moving to the country isn't the only post-PO option in any case. There are some days when I wonder if maybe the cities aren't the place to be. Time will tell. _________________ TANSTAAFL
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6143 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: Re: Rural laments
In some ways I agree with Thuja in this discussion.
I could never have "made it" to the country without a long period of city (Washington, DC) living, in which I lived in small efficiency apartments, was carless for long periods, and lived quite close to the bone . . . for many years. I viewed the country not only as an escape from the city but an escape from my job. This fantasy kept me motivated through the long hard slog of riding the subway, working in a sterile office, shopping for rotten vegetables in Korean groceries, fending off aggressive homeless types, etc.
By 1996 I had saved a tidy sum. For a song, I bought a small, fairly run-down house in Rockville, Maryland, just a few blocks from a subway stop. This was in the older, inner, leafier 'burbs, but still the 'burbs. Then the housing boom took off. I relentlessly fixed up the house, doing much of the work myself. I also kept saving throughout the five years I lived there. I sold the house for a decent profit a few weeks after 9/11, and moved to my parents' farm, and continued working my job for five more years as a teleworker. During those five years I was able to save or invest nearly all my income.
My job had incredible benefits, including not only a 401(k) but a fully company-funded pension. I worked for that firm for 17 years, and 27 years overall.
I had lived on my parents' farm off and on in previous years, and there was an apartment over a barn-like garage basically just waiting for me.
I retired two years ago at age 50.
There's a lot more history to this than that, going back to 1983 when I bought the first of the four 6- to 7-acre lots the farm occupies.
The point is that my ability to live the way I do where I do evolved over a long, long period and took planning, sacrifice, luck, and money. Also big help from the parents.
There are many routes to your own place in the country, but few of them are simple or cheap. You can't just up and move there unless you have a pot o' gold or some sort of family connection or are lucky enough to land a well-paying job in some out-of-the-way place. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12009 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:34 am Post subject: Re: Rural laments
thuja wrote:
This is the million dollar question because they produce 99% of our food.
At first they will try and pass on the cost to the consumer but at a certain point their model will no longer work economically. Just as the Airline industry is radically and quickly changing, the food industry will go through a massive shift as well.
I'm very interested to see how they try and transform...
Me too. Agriculture tends to adjust very slowly in practice. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Joined: Nov 15, 2007 Posts: 236 Location: US East Coast
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:48 am Post subject: Re: Rural laments
katkinkate wrote:
Ludi wrote:
I know only one shaman (he was trained by another shaman). I think "real" shaman are hard to come by.
Most people these days would think they are loons.
Most people don't want a loon in their community....
The shaman doesn't have to advertise him/herself as such. The role could be played by anyone involved in the community life: a teacher, an older grandfather/mother figure who volunteers in some community facility, the local shopkeeper who likes a good gossip and is concerned with the community. They don't have to be obvious to play the role effectively. Just be known as someone who helps, gives good advice, can tell a good story, can be trusted with secrets, can be trusted with people when they're hurting.
Kinda like the Bar Keep role Whoopie Goldberg played on Startrek!? _________________ When going through hell, keep going! Churchill
Nothing is ever lost by courtesy. It is the the cheapest of pleasures, costs nothing, and conveys much. E Wiman
I know there’s no solution, so I just enjoy what’s here and I enjoy the journey G Carlin
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