Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: Nov 25, 2006 Posts: 1541 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: Abandoning Cargoism & Embracing Our Options
MonteQuest wrote:
Narz wrote:
Also salt isn't necessary for human consumption. It's a luxery not a necessity.
Man....The human body requires between five and ten grams of salt a day. Humans need a daily intake of salt. Unlike other chemicals that the body requires, sodium chloride, or salt, cannot be reproduced by the body.
The human body needs sodium, not salt. Humans didn't evolve eating salt (though we did eat fish which probably had some salt in their bodies) nor do any of our primate cousins (or any land animals) season their food with salt.
It does come in handy for food preservation though and it's tasty but not a necessity. Plenty of people consume no refined table salt and are fine.
And what did you mean by "get ready for war"? How does a civilian go about doing that? _________________ My PO Amazon store (shameless plug).
“Seek simplicity but distrust it”
Last edited by Narz on Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: Abandoning Cargoism & Embracing Our Options
Narz wrote:
Re : Monte
I still do not understand what you're getting at.
Nor do I understand the belief that science (knowledge of the world) is necessarily bad? Perhaps we should not have eaten of the tree of knowledge & remained as animals?
And technology doesn't have to necessarily be bad. Are you saying that any technology that can create beyond the moment is bad? Is writing bad? If you believe that do you really think people will give it up? I'm sorry but your essay did not really help make things clearer to me.
What is so hard to grasp?
"People continue to advocate further technological breakthroughs as the supposedly sure cure for carrying capacity deficits. The very idea that technology caused overshoot, and that it made us too colossal to endure, remains alien to too many minds for"de-colossalization" to be a really feasible alternative to literal die-off. There is a persistent drive to apply remedies that aggravate the problem."
Any use of technology that allows us to exceed the long-term carrying of the earth is technology we must do without.
Had we limited our numbers on the commons, much of the technology we use today wouldn't even be necessary.
We could all live where the food is. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Joined: Nov 25, 2006 Posts: 1541 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:42 pm Post subject: Re: Abandoning Cargoism & Embracing Our Options
MonteQuest wrote:
What is so hard to grasp?
"People continue to advocate further technological breakthroughs as the supposedly sure cure for carrying capacity deficits. The very idea that technology caused overshoot, and that it made us too colossal to endure, remains alien to too many minds for"de-colossalization" to be a really feasible alternative to literal die-off. There is a persistent drive to apply remedies that aggravate the problem."
Any use of technology that allows us to exceed the long-term carrying of the earth is technology we must do without.
Ok, but now that we're here and we have developed some pretty cool technology (such as the Internet) why can't we use it on a smaller scale once 4 billion (or however many) people have died off. We can use it to share permaculture techniques & snitch on our neighbor (who just had her 3rd child) to the local authorities.
MonteQuest wrote:
Had we limited our numbers on the commons, much of the technology we use today wouldn't even be necessary.
We didn't develop most of it out of necessity but simple because we could. Humans like to try to do things just to see if we can.
MonteQuest wrote:
We could all live where the food is.
Sounds a bit naive. People have been probably fighting over food & resources since the Earth had fewer people than this forum. A lower human population would be good for the global ecosystem & the Earth as a whole (Gaia if you will) but it certainly wouldn't solve all our social/political/resource/economic problems. _________________ My PO Amazon store (shameless plug).
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:54 pm Post subject: Re: Abandoning Cargoism & Embracing Our Options
Narz wrote:
The human body needs sodium, not salt.
Most people add sodium in the form of salt to their food and table salt is 40% sodium. When man developed agriculture, salt was added to supplement the vegetable and cereal diet. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:59 pm Post subject: Re: Abandoning Cargoism & Embracing Our Options
TheHorrorTheHorror wrote:
Newton was interested in pure science, not designing a theory to support the use of machines or any specific approach to living.
I didn't say or even infer that he did.
Quote:
Montequest wrote:
Though we are largely unaware of it, much of the way we think, act, and feel can be traced back to the fragments woven together into the historical paradigms of our not too distant past.
I submit that we can trace them back to the ameba and beyond.
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:08 pm Post subject: Re: Abandoning Cargoism & Embracing Our Options
Narz wrote:
Ok, but now that we're here and we have developed some pretty cool technology (such as the Internet) why can't we use it on a smaller scale once 4 billion (or however many) people have died off.
You aswered that one yourself: "It's a luxery not a necessity."
Narz wrote:
We didn't develop most of it out of necessity but simple because we could. Humans like to try to do things just to see if we can.
Wrong. History has shown us that every technological breakthrough has produced unforeseen secondary effects more disastrous than if it had never been invented. Every technological invention has appeared because the ones which preceded it rendered necessary the ones which followed.
Quote:
Sounds a bit naive. People have been probably fighting over food & resources since the Earth had fewer people than this forum. A lower human population would be good for the global ecosystem & the Earth as a whole (Gaia if you will) but it certainly wouldn't solve all our social/political/resource/economic problems.
It isn't supposed to. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Joined: Nov 06, 2007 Posts: 756 Location: Illinois
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:14 pm Post subject: Re: Abandoning Cargoism & Embracing Our Options
I'm not sure why people are knocking division of labor. It was around long before fossil fuels and will be around long after they are gone. This notion that everyone must be a farmer is silly to me. "Give me some of your food farmer and I'll give you some of my goods/services." _________________ The oil barrel is half-full.
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 3317 Location: Resiliency Farm
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: Abandoning Cargoism & Embracing Our Options
kublikhan wrote:
I'm not sure why people are knocking division of labor. It was around long before fossil fuels and will be around long after they are gone. This notion that everyone must be a farmer is silly to me. "Give me some of your food farmer and I'll give you some of my goods/services."
As long as it is a good/service that the farmer needs that will work just fine.
Of course most farmers want/need those things which are produced by other farmers. The wheat farmer wants cheese, the dairyman wants bread, the vegitible guy wants meat and the rancher wants... well you get the idea. Other than that there is metal working and lumber production on the "need" list. Maybe books, newspapers and preaching.
What else is there?
Whatcha got? _________________ “It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him.”
J.R.R. Tolkien
"The time has come for men to act like men; and for women, well, to act a lot more like men."
-Ma Cur
Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 8 Location: Bay Area, California
Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:01 am Post subject: Re: Abandoning Cargoism & Embracing Our Options
Montequest wrote:
The answer, it was assumed, was to use the principles of mechanics to rearrange the stuff of nature in a way that best advanced the material self-interest of human beings: The more material well-being we amass, the more ordered the world must be getting.
Sorry, I thought that you were suggesting that the materialism Zeitgeist or notions about entropy were somehow responsible for humans wanting to amass material well-being.
Edited to add: or that using those theories as justification was a major explanation for people amassing stuff.
MonteQuest wrote:
Historical paradigms.....
Sorry, I was thinking in scientific terms.
Last edited by TheHorrorTheHorror on Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:08 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Nov 06, 2007 Posts: 756 Location: Illinois
Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:30 am Post subject: Re: Abandoning Cargoism & Embracing Our Options
wisconsin_cur wrote:
kublikhan wrote:
I'm not sure why people are knocking division of labor. It was around long before fossil fuels and will be around long after they are gone. This notion that everyone must be a farmer is silly to me. "Give me some of your food farmer and I'll give you some of my goods/services."
As long as it is a good/service that the farmer needs that will work just fine.
Of course most farmers want/need those things which are produced by other farmers. The wheat farmer wants cheese, the dairyman wants bread, the vegitible guy wants meat and the rancher wants... well you get the idea. Other than that there is metal working and lumber production on the "need" list. Maybe books, newspapers and preaching.
What else is there?
Whatcha got?
How about law enforcement, fire service, water service, barber, baker, carpenter, plumber, electrician, scrap dealer, prostitute, drug dealer, etc. I think you get the idea.
Edit: I was not implying I could personally provide all of the above services _________________ The oil barrel is half-full.
Last edited by kublikhan on Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:46 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:35 am Post subject: Re: Abandoning Cargoism & Embracing Our Options
Gnarz wrote:
If I ever move up the my parents place in the country I'd be happy to hire people more experienced & knowledgable than me in regards to permaculture and give them free board... if it's a slow but undeniable decline where we have time to prepare.
Problem is, the point here, that you are missing, is this:
There is no "slow but undeniable" decline, "where we will have time to prepare".
You have no time to prepare.
Deniability is a veil that is evaporating as we speak.
If this is your plan, it is a fantasy and you will die.
Pal, permaculture is a joke that will get you killed... because practically no one that professes to "know" the science can actually apply it successfully enough to thrive, and not just "survive" to the conditions coming down the pike... soon.
Global CO2 is pushed over the critical 450 PPM and your whole operation of perennials start to wither and die....
And as for us, in contrast with you,
We will grow vertically, in skyscrapers, in rooftop greenhouses.
Genetic engineering will outcompete pest mutation rates, and we will install fascism necessary to force a global reduction of CO2.
Howja like my future!!!??
Narz wrote:
They can't draft me. I'm mentally ill.
Yeah, but not everyone is:
jdumars wrote:
The fact is... I am actually doing something.
Hmmm, mentally ill, or actually doing something...
Quote:
MonteQuest wrote:
10. Get prepared to not live as long as you had hoped.
I plan to hit 80 or 90.
Uhhhh, yeah. You'll warm my compost pile up to 170 maybe. When I'm 115, breathing on your corpse.
Why does a mentally ill person post on these message forums???
*Ahem.. ..
Narz wrote:
MonteQuest wrote:
edit: Get prepared to share.
I like sharing. As long as people don't try to force me to.
But Narz, some people are going to like forcing you to share.
Maybe you'd like a job like that... I mean, you'd be better off. You could get paid, keep buying your meds, and farking your girlfriend in your dad's Kuntry Kottage.
Narz wrote:
The use of technology is hard wired into us and we can no more give it up than fish can stop swimming.
We can choose to change the wiring.
Coming soon to a brain near you.
Quote:
Without computers (the Internet specifically) probably 80-90% of people here wouldn't even know about peak oil.
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 3317 Location: Resiliency Farm
Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:29 am Post subject: Re: Abandoning Cargoism & Embracing Our Options
kublikhan wrote:
wisconsin_cur wrote:
kublikhan wrote:
I'm not sure why people are knocking division of labor. It was around long before fossil fuels and will be around long after they are gone. This notion that everyone must be a farmer is silly to me. "Give me some of your food farmer and I'll give you some of my goods/services."
As long as it is a good/service that the farmer needs that will work just fine.
Of course most farmers want/need those things which are produced by other farmers. The wheat farmer wants cheese, the dairyman wants bread, the vegitible guy wants meat and the rancher wants... well you get the idea. Other than that there is metal working and lumber production on the "need" list. Maybe books, newspapers and preaching.
What else is there?
Whatcha got?
How about law enforcement, fire service, water service, barber, baker, carpenter, plumber, electrician, scrap dealer, prostitute, drug dealer, etc. I think you get the idea.
Edit: I was not implying I could personally provide all of the above services
Of course you are right, at least on some accounts Many of those people can and do accomplish without paying someone providing the service for them.
law enforcement: I agree with you
fire fighter: let it burn and have a barn raising in the fall, neighbors help restock lost animals
water service: buy a deep well pump (my metal worker)
barber wife
baker wife
carpenter self
plumber self
electrician self or (electricity? what is that?)
scrap dealer I would fold this into my metal worker but of course when people stop selling their scrap and decide to keep it there will be less need for a scrap dealer.
prostitute I don't know how many farmers visit prostitutes. More of course than would admit it but I think we could get by without one if times were tight.
drug dealer: self or the brewery... brewer could be added to the list I suppose as someone who adds value to a farmer's crop and then returns it to him/her. Same would go for the cheese maker. _________________ “It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him.”
J.R.R. Tolkien
"The time has come for men to act like men; and for women, well, to act a lot more like men."
-Ma Cur
Joined: Nov 06, 2007 Posts: 756 Location: Illinois
Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:47 am Post subject: Re: Abandoning Cargoism & Embracing Our Options
wisconsin_cur wrote:
prostitute I don't know how many farmers visit prostitutes. More of course than would admit it but I think we could get by without one if times were tight.
Lol, this is not exactly the direction I was expecting the conversation to go:
Quote:
"We can't be held responsible for what happens in the barnyard of every hell-bound hillbilly that holes up on the fringes of our church property," Pastor Deacon Fred told federal authorities who, unbeknownst to Pastor, had apparently been monitoring a prostitution ring on the Johnson Farm for over a year. "It's true that Hosea Johnson’s family pays an exhorbant annual tithe to this church," continued Pastor, "and that is likely why we saw no need to pay them a visit but once a year. They were Platinum Tithers."
Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:28 am Post subject: Re: Abandoning Cargoism & Embracing Our Options
Narz wrote:
MrBean wrote:
Narz wrote:
Without computers (the Internet specifically) probably 80-90% of people here wouldn't even know about peak oil.
And ain't we glad that PO is happening in the post-Internet days and not pre-? Too bad these things are not really sustainable, but during powerdown I hope these and Internet are among the last tech to ditch.
Why would we ever ditch the Internet if we can help it? It's perhaps the greatest technology we've ever created.
If it is not sustainable, it cannot be sustained. In current form it is based on fossile energy and clearly unsustainable.
Quote:
Is writing bad?
Plato says writing is farmakon, both medicin and poison.
Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:37 am Post subject: Re: Abandoning Cargoism & Embracing Our Options
Narz wrote:
MonteQuest wrote:
Narz wrote:
Also salt isn't necessary for human consumption. It's a luxery not a necessity.
Man....The human body requires between five and ten grams of salt a day. Humans need a daily intake of salt. Unlike other chemicals that the body requires, sodium chloride, or salt, cannot be reproduced by the body.
The human body needs sodium, not salt. Humans didn't evolve eating salt (though we did eat fish which probably had some salt in their bodies) nor do any of our primate cousins (or any land animals) season their food with salt.
Human metabolism of salt or sodium is very wastefull compared to our primate cousins, we swet lot's of it; that is one of the facts behind the aquatic ape -theory.
Without salt and only water to sweat in a hot surrounding you'll get horrible cramps and then you die.
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