How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
I think it would be highly possible and probable that wild bees and genetically modified bees have reproduced imperfect strains, this being the result?
Does anyone know the climate range honey bees can withstand? Im sure it would be different in different regions but im assuming the range would still be comparable? _________________ -----------------------------------------------------------
Control your destiny or somebody else will.
-Jack Welch
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Agriculture - Colony Collapse Disorder, killer of billions of honeybees, isn't likely to affect U.S. crops this year, the American Beekeeping Federation says, pointing to a forecast for a record almond harvest in California.
Production of almonds, the ninth-largest U.S. crop by value and the crop that uses the most honeybees for pollination, may reach 662 million kilograms, according to a survey of growers released Wednesday by the U.S. Department of Agriculture. That would be the most ever and 5.8 per cent more than last year, when the harvest was valued at $2.4 billion US.
With almond pollination over, enough bees are available to fertilize other U.S. crops threatened by the malady and valued at more than $12 billion, said Troy Fore, the Beekeeping Federation's executive director.
Hive owners lost 36 per cent of their colonies this year, after a 32 per cent loss in the previous year, according to an Apiary Inspectors of America survey.
Would you like to plot a trend on hive loss for us OilFinder? Or maybe you are privy to some secret about how to make almonds without bees?
Did I say hive loss wasn't occurring?
No, I didn't. Obviously it is.
But as the article says, California nonetheless is poised to have a record almond crop. Do you have information to the contrary? If so, feel free to post it. Otherwise, it would appear there are still enough bees around to create a record crop.
No, not necesarily. If it was a particularly windy pollen season then that could be another answer. Like I said before i grow fruit and veges and have been relying on wind pollination for a couple of years now ... _________________ -----------------------------------------------------------
Control your destiny or somebody else will.
-Jack Welch
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Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:25 pm Post subject: Re: Bee die off threatens 2008 US Ag disaster
OilFinder2 wrote:
Interestingly, this doesn't seem to be affecting agricultural production.
You do know that these bees are trucked to the fields for pollination don't you?
There is a truck convoy of bee hives that travel from crop to crop pollinated them.
It's even worse in Sichuan province in China where the bee population was killed off because of overuse of pesticides. They now have to painstakingly remove the pollen off each flower, allow it to dry for two days and then crush it to a powder. Then, using a brush made of chicken feathers to replicate the bushy body of a bee, a farmer lightly dusts each blossom of a pear tree. One person can do about 30 trees in a day. A bee can do about 3 million blossoms. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:04 am Post subject: Re: Bee die off threatens 2008 US Ag disaster
I saw a special on PBS about a week ago - it's not just bees - it's most polinators that are experiencing a die-off, including certain types of flies, butterflies, and moths.
The_Toecutter wrote:
Certain types of flies can be used to pollinate crops as well. Possible short-term solution?
Probably not...
"The hungry sheep look up and are not fed... But swollen with wind and the rank mist they draw. Rot inwardly, and foul contagion spread." ~Milton
Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: Re: Bee die off threatens 2008 US Ag disaster
jbrovont wrote:
I saw a special on PBS about a week ago - it's not just bees - it's most polinators that are experiencing a die-off, including certain types of flies, butterflies, and moths.
The_Toecutter wrote:
Certain types of flies can be used to pollinate crops as well. Possible short-term solution?
You can thank Monsanto again. I'm sure they would like to hear from you. I've heard that they have crossed a geek with a rat and put it in charge of their beloved, kind and gentle company. He was with the senate for awhile, but then became their CEO.
Probably not...
"The hungry sheep look up and are not fed... But swollen with wind and the rank mist they draw. Rot inwardly, and foul contagion spread." ~Milton
Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:25 am Post subject: Re: Bee die off threatens 2008 US Ag disaster
as if the bee industry wasnt in enough trouble, 12 million bees escaped an over turned truck! They think they can get them back but im sure more than a few have made a quick get away ...
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080630/bees_truck_080630/20080630?hub=Canada Published: Mon. Jun. 30 2008 8:22 PM ET _________________ -----------------------------------------------------------
Control your destiny or somebody else will.
-Jack Welch
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Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: Re: Bee die off threatens 2008 US Ag disaster
Zeeea wrote:
more than a few have made a quick get away ...
They on the run from the law or something? _________________ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--for ever."
-George Orwell, 1984
Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: Bee die off threatens 2008 US Ag disaster
im sure a few wouldve got lost ...what would the chances be that none got away? A bit of common sense goes a long way ... _________________ -----------------------------------------------------------
Control your destiny or somebody else will.
-Jack Welch
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Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Bee die off threatens 2008 US Ag disaster
Keep in mind that bee survival over winter has never been good. It is not unusual for beekeepers to lose 20% over winter in cold places. Hives naturally attempt to reproduce and can be split in the spring, sometimes multiple times. So, when you read that a beekeeper lost 30% of his hives to CCD, you can bet that he will have the same number of hives he started with again by summer. If a beekeeper loses 30% one year and 30% the next year, he is probably only down by 30%, not 60%. CCD is only a disaster if it wipes out all your bees.
Although there were great losses in feral bees to to Varroa and tracheal mites, there is a lot of evidence that the resistant bees have survived and are now thriving. Swarm removal is booming business in the south, where bees aren't slowed down as much by winter. Even here in the NW, where long, cold, wet winters can be rough on bees, I've be called to remove nine swarms this spring and that is just word of mouth.
I started the year with three hives, two of which I split once and one of which I split twice, resulting in seven hives. I successfully collected seven of the nine swarms, of which five thrived and two had to be combined together, for a total count of 13 hives. I have sold three of those hives to new beekeepers since I don't really have room for more than ten.
So, CCD is bad if it really wipes you out in a year, but it is not the end of the world. We may all be moving to feral stock instead of the traditional domesticated races if they turn out to be significantly more resistant. Only two of my ten hives are domesticated races at this point. _________________ With a farewell scream of escaping steam, the boiler bows to the Diesel;
The Iron Horse has run its course and we ride a chromium weasel
-Ogden Nash
Joined: Sep 04, 2005 Posts: 356 Location: central MA, USA
Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Bee die off threatens 2008 US Ag disaster
Is there any data suggesting pollinators are being affected more strongly in some regions of the nation than others? And, is CCD a global phenomenon, or primarily an American one?
Here in central Peoples' Republic of Massachusetts , I don't typically see many honeybees in my yard until autumn, when native asters are in bloom. Then, the yard can be literally humming with them on a sunny warm day.
Meanwhile, I don't think I'm seeing any shortage of native bee and wasp species in my gardens this year. I'm seeing a fair number of bumblebees, and lots of solitary bees and wasps. I'm getting pretty good blossom set in vegetables, and my blueberries are just loaded with fruit, as are the wild blackberry brambles all up & down the driveway.
I certainly believe the reports of colony collapses are real. I'm just curious whether it's perhaps more common in regions with large swaths of mono-crop agriculture?? I don't get the impression it's been worse for bees here than in years past, but perhaps my anecdotal observations are only that. Hope not, as I'd like to have some beehives someday!
Joined: Apr 12, 2007 Posts: 1162 Location: Central NC
Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Bee die off threatens 2008 US Ag disaster
dissimulo wrote:
Keep in mind that bee survival over winter has never been good. It is not unusual for beekeepers to lose 20% over winter in cold places. Hives naturally attempt to reproduce and can be split in the spring, sometimes multiple times. So, when you read that a beekeeper lost 30% of his hives to CCD, you can bet that he will have the same number of hives he started with again by summer. If a beekeeper loses 30% one year and 30% the next year, he is probably only down by 30%, not 60%. CCD is only a disaster if it wipes out all your bees.
Although there were great losses in feral bees to to Varroa and tracheal mites, there is a lot of evidence that the resistant bees have survived and are now thriving. Swarm removal is booming business in the south, where bees aren't slowed down as much by winter. Even here in the NW, where long, cold, wet winters can be rough on bees, I've be called to remove nine swarms this spring and that is just word of mouth.
I started the year with three hives, two of which I split once and one of which I split twice, resulting in seven hives. I successfully collected seven of the nine swarms, of which five thrived and two had to be combined together, for a total count of 13 hives. I have sold three of those hives to new beekeepers since I don't really have room for more than ten.
So, CCD is bad if it really wipes you out in a year, but it is not the end of the world. We may all be moving to feral stock instead of the traditional domesticated races if they turn out to be significantly more resistant. Only two of my ten hives are domesticated races at this point.
Really interesting stuff. Keep us updated.
I don't see bees in our apple or peach trees. A few came in last year when the corn flowered. Didn't plant any this year due to JB issues last year. Haven't seen a bee this year that I remember. _________________ "The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences…"
Sir Winston Churchill
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:34 am Post subject: Re: Bee die off threatens 2008 US Ag disaster
Zeeea wrote:
Yes the bees are dying, but mainly the genetically modified ones that scientists created in their laboratory, which bee keepers get their stock from!
The person who wrote the article that you referenced appears to have jumped to some unreasonable conclusions out of ignorance. Bees are not genetically modified in a laboratory. The races of honeybees used in apiculture in North America are the descendants of European honeybees imported in the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries. Superior strains are frequently mated to produce superior offspring, but this is traditional selection and has nothing to do with genetic engineering. When you buy a package of bees, you get Italian, Russian, Carnolian, or other sub-strains that are simply select descendants of the native bees that lived in those regions.
The feral honeybees in North America are descendants of the exact same bees, which have spawned from commercial hives and set up shop in the wild. Over time, they interbreed with each other and become mongrels, but are often superior to commercial bees in terms of survivability, since their weaknesses are not compensated for by a beekeeper. Note that, while they may be better survivors, they are frequently not better honey producers and they may be more aggressive than domesticated bees. For the hobbyist, this is no big deal. I really like feral bees because they are often lower maintenance, even if their yields are poorer and they are meaner.
The size of a honeybee is determined by the size of the cell it is raised in. Left to their own devices, bees tend to build cells about 4.9mm across, but commercial comb foundation has traditionally been sized at 5.4mm. This results in a somewhat larger than natural bee, but this was not an intentional development; it does not create a "superior" bee. Because comb foundation was used for both brood and honey storage and larger cells are more efficient for honey storage, the 5.4mm size was used. In reality, the difference in yield is minimal. However, for most of beekeeping history, a large cell bee has not been a noticeable disadvantage. There is a theory that smaller cells interrupt the life-cycle of Varroa, giving small cell bees a survival advantage. The research is not conclusive. I have bees on both small and large cell and all have Varroa, but it is not at problematic levels in any of my hives.
Commercial beekeepers treat their hives preventively with drugs because they put their bees under unusual stress with all the shipping from place to place. In a weak hive, Varroa can become a serious problem. Miticides take care of Varroa pretty effectively. Antibiotics are used to prevent American Foul Brood. AFB is probably the worst of the bee diseases - it is a spore-forming bacillus that kills the brood in their cells. There is no way to medicate the brood, so no way to stop the disease once it starts. The bees must be destroyed to prevent spreading the disease. In addition, due to the robust nature of the spores, contaminated equipment must be burned. You can imagine what the impact would be on a commercial beekeeper with hundreds or thousands of hives. So, it makes a great deal of sense to medicate the bees to prevent AFB.
For the hobbyist, different rules apply. Bees are much less likely to be stressed and weakened, so disease is not as common. If a hobbyist gets AFB and has to burn a hive or two, it is not a wipe-out.
Genetically engineered bees would be a blessing. It is very difficult to manage many bee diseases because they strike during developmental stages. If scientists really could brew up some super bees in the lab, it would solve a lot of problems. CCD is just the latest twist in bee plagues. _________________ With a farewell scream of escaping steam, the boiler bows to the Diesel;
The Iron Horse has run its course and we ride a chromium weasel
-Ogden Nash
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:51 am Post subject: Re: Bee die off threatens 2008 US Ag disaster
Homesteader wrote:
I don't see bees in our apple or peach trees. A few came in last year when the corn flowered. Didn't plant any this year due to JB issues last year. Haven't seen a bee this year that I remember.
Honeybees are frequently not the best pollinator for tree fruit. In many places, trees bloom in spring before the weather is really right for the bees to be flying regularly. Bumble bees and mason bees are often the pollinators.
Plus, bees will tend to focus on particular plants in particular areas - they have favorite crops. For example, if you have blackberries half a mile away and a large garden in your yard with a beehive right next to it, there is a very good chance that the bees will fly right over your garden, ignoring it completely, in order to focus on the blackberries. Bees forage in about a 1 mile radius, putting several thousand acres in their area of operation, so you could have bee hives all around you and rarely see a bee. _________________ With a farewell scream of escaping steam, the boiler bows to the Diesel;
The Iron Horse has run its course and we ride a chromium weasel
-Ogden Nash
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, I don't typically see many honeybees in my yard until autumn, when native asters are in bloom. Then, the yard can be literally humming with them on a sunny warm day.
