Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
I just know that most of the ppl i know into the end times never reach one soul for Jesus. Too busy arguing some mundane point that does not matter. Jesus said no man knows the day so quit trying to figure it all out. IT DOES NOT MATTER. TODAY matters and every day, ppl are dying and going to hell.
He is able to keep us in the end as He does now and trusting Himfor that is easier than trying to figure it out. I used to study it and teach it too so not ignorant, by any means. Just gave up as I saw it was not important.
What would JESUS really do. He sat with the sinners, prostitutes, theives and tax collectors. Didnt go to church much and did not try and build a kingdom here on earth as the church is trying to do today with their multi million dollar buildings, self help groups, mind control policies. etc.
I have been in the forefront of the movement for 40 years so not talking from not knowing. Just suddenly dawned on me that THIS is not what Jesus had in mind.
Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
joelcolorado wrote:
What would JESUS really do. He sat with the sinners, prostitutes, theives and tax collectors. Didnt go to church much and did not try and build a kingdom here on earth as the church is trying to do today with their multi million dollar buildings, self help groups, mind control policies. etc.
Amen.
About your point earlier - Eschatology definitely has a place in the Christian walk, that's why God gave us the prophicies. Nonetheless, as Christians we should be living for Christ and to further the Gospel.
"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." (Jude 1:21-23)
Here we see how God brings people in different situations to Himself. The final result always being salvation in Jesus Christ.
Joined: Dec 26, 2006 Posts: 257 Location: Eastern Washington
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:18 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Why did Jesus have to use miracles if he knew who was chosen and who wasn't chosen? I've always asked myself that question and even Pascal couldn't find an answer!
I do believe that Pascal's wager has become more important in these times of tribulation.
Thanks for this thread.
Rogo _________________ "Those who long for exaltation look upwards, but I look downward for I am the exalted."
Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
joelcolorado wrote:
The bible says that God is not a man.....so we need to quit limiting Him with mans weaknesses. He created the worlds as we know them, space and all it holds. I believe He can finish this thing and keep His people. One way or another.
We get to thinking God has to do it that way or this, when we know He can do more than we ask or think, more than we can imagine and more than man can ever dream of. What kind of God are YOU serving.
Moses just saw His back and his face shown for many days. What kind of being must He be.?>
'Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, cruel, with fury and burning anger, to make the land a desolation; and He will exterminate it's sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not flash forth their light; and the moon will not shed its light. Thus I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud, and abase the haughtiness of the truthless. I will make mortal man scarcer than pure gold, and mankind than the gold of Ophir. Therefore I shall make the heavens temble, and the earth will be shaken from its place at the fury of the Lord of hosts in the day of His burning anger.'
Isaiah 13:9-13
I personally wonder what it is going to take to wake America up. The wolf is at the door now with oil expected to keep rising and at least a few hurricanes expected in the Gulf. Since 1999 we have had, dotcom bust, 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq, Katrina, Rita, housing collapse, onset of peak oil, dollar collapse, fires somewhere every year, floods, tornadoes, blizzards, all at a pretty regular clip of about one major event every couple months. And still we persist in acting as if we do not need to humble ourselves and pray. And every day that we brush the dust of another catastrophe off our feet we force all of the universe to raise itself off it's seat, 'Will the Almighty refrain from judging a nation such as this?' they say. This nation is setting itself up for the most hurrendous jugment of God, to be the most terible example of what not to do when blessed by God that has ever existed. And still we persist.
About Ezek 38, I associated that with Rev 20:7-10. I know it is spoken of before the temple in that book, but something about it has never sat well with me as a prophecy about the battle of Armageddon. In fact there could be several battles in the Middle East before the events mentioned in Armageddon. It seems to me that we first have a battle involving the US, Russia, Iran, Israel and other nationsin the region. Later after many judgments the kings of the east come across the dried up Euphrates, these have been gathered by the spirits of demons to try to resist the Second Coming, so that Armageddon is the slaughter on the day of the Lord's return. I am not claiming that is certainly right, but I do not patronize the status quo when it comes to eschatology since it just feeds into the control mechanisms of organized religion more often than not. We all sit in the pews waiting for our 'anointed' and well dressed leaders to give us some clue about things that only they apparently can understand. No, Isaiah is clear in his vision, it all has to come down and God will do it. The pride of men will be broken and out of the ashes a new world will form with Christ Jesus reigning in Jerusalem. Of that part I am certain and it is not many years off that no one who has known God will doubt that we are at the very time of the end of this old order, and the 'new world order' will be destroyed by Jesus at His return.
'And this expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, in order that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.'
Hebrews 12:27
'But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and it's works will be burned up.'
2 Peter 3:10
Those who have invested their all into the ways of this world will view the Judgment of God and those who proclaim 'flee from this wicked and perverse genaration' to be theives.
Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Amen, peleg.
I haven't seen, '6', no.
About Ezekiel 38, I've thought the same myself about Revelation 20. Especially in light of this verse..
"Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?" (Ezekiel 38:14)
You could be right.
I share your grieving over our countries. Canada just awarded the chief propriator of abortion with the Order of Canada. What a vile statement to make.
How long will the Lord tarry with us? Our continent desperately needs a sackcloth and ashes revival.
I know one place that revival needs to start - me.
Oh how I struggle daily with such miserable weakness and sin.
Woe is me, peleg.
"Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts." (Isaiah 6:5)
Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
POAlex wrote:
Amen, peleg.
I haven't seen, '6', no.
About Ezekiel 38, I've thought the same myself about Revelation 20. Especially in light of this verse..
"Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?" (Ezekiel 38:14)
You could be right.
I share your grieving over our countries. Canada just awarded the chief propriator of abortion with the Order of Canada. What a vile statement to make.
How long will the Lord tarry with us? Our continent desperately needs a sackcloth and ashes revival.
I know one place that revival needs to start - me.
Oh how I struggle daily with such miserable weakness and sin.
Woe is me, peleg.
"Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts." (Isaiah 6:5)
Alex
I wonder what it looks like really, true personal revival. You have to make your way in this world no matter how spiritual you are. I deal with alot of things similar to what Isaiah expresses. By all rights, ability, education I should be on track for a healthy public service career. Isaiah was an advisor and relative of Hezekiah. I think for me revival starts within with a deep realization of God Himself which is the fruit of the born again experience, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in our hearts by faith. I cannot change the world, but I can provide a safe secure home where God is praised. I can speak out in various places for what I believe to be right. I'm not certain that what appears to be church in this world is amazingly spiritual, in fact I tend to be more like Kierkegaard on that matter. Inward love is better than outward piety in my opinion. There should be someone in our life who finds us faithful. If I always look like I am doing the right thing in man's eyes I am probably not very close to God. Of course there is need for qualification but mostly I find that the majority of Christians dislike the rich not because the rich are sinful per se but because they do not fit in very well. I grew up far away fror the social etiquette that matters so much among the wealthy in most places. But all things like that can be learned and you have to speak to each person in a way they can understand. And yet God made the rich as well as the poor and saddled the rich with a greater accountibility for that blessing. That is why I love this passage about Jesus which calls us back to a right understanding,
'And He will delight in the fear of the Lord. And He will not judge by what His eyes see, nor make a decision by what His ears hear; but with righteousness He will judge the poor, and decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; and He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.'
Isaiah 11:3-5
The point is that Jesus is not swayed by the political flavor of the month. He does not look at the poor man's sin and make excuses for it because of his hard life or give special place to the rich man because of his fine clothes.
I'm sorry to shock my brothers with this position but I do believe that the way to challenge the far left is not to deny them the freedom God still grants them. Rather we should get government out of the marriage debate and allow individual pastors to decide if they will bless 'marriages' leaving the matter of dependency for legal benefit open to all even non-sexual relationships. Then by completely enfranchising the gay community in every way that anyone esle is so bound, we can expect from them the same type of civic conscience we all must share. That is, they will have to deal with the uncomfortable social trends within their own ranks, and with the hate that is focused against those who disagree with them.
It was about ten years ago I heard an interview with Bill Cosby in which he lamented that the young blacks had no interest in citizenship, black youth cultureit was just a hip-hop big mama crime drama. He said that part of the failure of the black community to carry on the work of the 60's was due in part to their own unwillingness to address internal social problems. He said they could not blame the broader society for every problem they faced. This is a great truth that applies to all social groups that may at any point feel disenfranchised; blacks, Catholics, gays, rednecks, (insert your minority status here.)
It is when that personal revival starts and we understand that our life is lived in relationship to others who are different from us, even if they share our faith, and we begin to consider the value of community and the love that gave Christ as a sacrifice for all sin that we act as emissaries of Christ. In most western nations the culture itself is turning farther and farther away from God. It becomes harder and harder to say to a coworker, 'I'm sorry my religion forbids my doing that.' because people are so willing to attack what is different from them, and yet if we submit to it we are left with nothing but a homogeneous mass of bland uberlife. What if some of us do not want to go out to eat with the boss, but our work is exceptional nonetheless? Should the coworker with the natural endowments and a Phd in sleeping upwards be able to kill our chances for a promotion? These are all matters of morality that in the big amount to an inefficient society at the very least. The Catholic catechism talks about the natural law and the moral law and I think we could do this country alot of good by simply using peer pressure to enforce what we all know to be right and wrong. As a Christian nation we ought to be able to make that choice right, to do what we know is right?
We have the right to be salt and light and be in the earth but not of it. Alot of Christians do not think it appropriate to work on climate change or energy policy or to be involved with the government at all. I disagree, but I do not go to the extreme of trying to use law to enforce Christianity, so long as the obvious moral law governs our civic atmosphere. To me a sure sign of the end times and of the antichrist's reign will be that time when all such petitions to the moral law are not just refuted but ignored. We are not there yet.
I understand Joel and mystiek that God is in charge. He is. But he has also given us reponsibility and authority in this earth. We are called to act like Him as much as we can in whatever situation we find ourselves, not be pidgeon-holed by group think or prevaling opinion, or submit to power that subverts morality. Justice is important. Refusing to treat the illnesses of those whose sin we find particularly heinous is not mercy (AIDS.) It is not easy to see that love and mercy require moderate social politics, but it is true. At the same time that the Pharisees asserted their right to freedom of association so that they did not need to hang out with sinners, Jesus made a point of associating with prostitutes (not all but certainly some.) Both the far right and the far left have gravely missed the mark, and because so many in the middle are content not to get involved, a minority of voters chooses for all of us, and a minority of voices shape the policies of this nation. The middle needs to rise up again. Moderates have the numbers to win every election all the time if we could just get organized. I am still hopeful, as the Lord also teaches me to be. The end we fear could be many decades way. The prophecies make it doubtful that is it centuries away but that is what they thought at the turn of the last millenium as well.
In any event, the things talked about in the Book of Revelation are so vast and truly global that you will not miss them. But we stand at a moment when there is still a significant question as to whether now is the time. In my heart I have at times felt certain beyond all doubt, and I hold my beliefs on the matter. But yet I must live as a good man in the earth and care for my family and give back to the world in which I live. God has yet to verify for me that my role right now is to stand in the public sqaure yelling 'the end is near!' I can only pray for grace to hear Him better.
Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
What a friend we have in Jesus,
all our sins and griefs to bear!
What a privilege to carry
everything to God in prayer!
O what peace we often forfeit,
O what needless pain we bear,
all because we do not carry
everything to God in prayer.
Have we trials and temptations?
Is there trouble anywhere?
We should never be discouraged;
take it to the Lord in prayer.
Can we find a friend so faithful
who will all our sorrows share?
Jesus knows our every weakness;
take it to the Lord in prayer.
Are we weak and heavy laden,
cumbered with a load of care?
Precious Savior, still our refuge;
take it to the Lord in prayer.
Do thy friends despise, forsake thee?
Take it to the Lord in prayer!
In his arms he'll take and shield thee;
thou wilt find a solace there.
Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Signs and wonders were for unbelievers. I think thats why we dont see them today as most christians try and practice that in church meetings among the saved.
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
joelcolorado wrote:
Signs and wonders were for unbelievers. I think thats why we dont see them today as most christians try and practice that in church meetings among the saved.
It is a good point.
'Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.' 1 Corinthians 14:1
Now some like to stop there and say , 'Yes but prophecy is forthtelling, ie calling people to God's Word and we have alot of preachers doing that already.' However the Apostle makes clear his intention in the verses that come after.
'But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.' 1 Cor 14:24,25
There are many saved but ungifted persons in the Body today, I do not look down on them, however I do believe that those who try to limit God's Spirit and insist that He does not speak to His people any longer except through their preacher have alot to answer for n the day of judgment. The Lord has always and will always be the the God who speaks.
Lokk at this also,
'What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has a interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.'
1 Corinthians 14:26
He is speaking to the Corinthians long after the day of Pentecost.
Lest we think he speaks only to the Corinthians consider this to the Thessalonians.
'Do not quench the Spirit; do not despise prophetic utterances. But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil.'
1 Thessalonians 5:19
We are called not to reject the gifts of the spirit (1 Cor 12) but to be mature enough to judge them within the context of edification, and let me tell you it is certainly edifiying to many when someone comes along and tells you that God saw you under the fig tree. The Lord the Spirit still speaks to His church today.
Lest we think Paul may only have been trying to help the Corinthians and the Thessalonians to hang on until gifts were slated to depart the church sometime around 150 AD he writes to the Colossians,
'And when this letter is read among you, have it read in the church of the Laodiceans; and you, for your part read my leter that is coming from Laodicea.' Colossians 4:16
The epistles, though often intended to address specific concerns of the churches to which they were addressed, were viewed by Paul as having general content and giving instruction for all Christians.
Take courage, ask and you shall receive. What father among you if His son asks for a fish will give him a stone?
Do not quench the Spirit, you will need His intimate counsel in what lies ahead.
Joined: May 20, 2008 Posts: 306 Location: Tennessee
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Thanks Mercury Girl! I read so much doom, gloom and despair on the other threads-and its very understandable. On the Christian Perspective thread hopefully as a group we can offer hope through the saving knowledge of Jesus. Even though everything seems to be spinning out of control in the natural, as Christians we can rest in the security that God is still in control. Psalm 23!
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