Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
jlw61 wrote:
The armed citizen that is feared by government is the best protection against government excess.
Only if those armed citizens do something worth being feared for. _________________ The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
Joined: Oct 23, 2005 Posts: 1791 Location: East of Eden
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
I wouldn't be surprised if North America were to suffer balkanization in the long run, not at all. At this point, the U.S. has a huge amount of bulk that, like the Empires of old, requires ever-increasing complexity and maintenance to continue. (I think of it like a large publicly-owned corporation - past a certain point, it doesn't matter how many millions the company earned, what matters is whether the company was able to keep growing.) Culturally, Quebec is halfway there, the Lone Star Republic would be a skip and a jump, and I personally wouldn't mind splitting off parts of the west here. I could see a Great Lakes Confederation, United Southwest States, Greater Dakota, etc. And the "Southern Myth" is alive and well - I doubt those states would be too against the idea. I believe it's referred to as "regional consciousness."
Where I think the essay breaks down is in putting so much emphasis on racial differences. The Pacific Northwest just has a different way of thinking and voting than, say, the deep south, and that wouldn't change even if both areas were filled with a single ethnicity. Hispanic Florida? Florida is also filled with rich white retirees from New England. (Not saying we shouldn't split off Florida - after those last two general elections, I'd be quite in favor of that.) I'm interested in the Nine Nations book, it sounds intriguing, but also perhaps a bit simplistic.
As for the rights being taken away, I agree with jlw (except for the bit about the rocket launchers ). They will be taken away if we allow them to be (the rights, not the rocket launchers). In the future, it will become more difficult to protect them and ourselves. Will we? That remains to be seen. I'll admit our track record so far this century isn't so hot. Hopefully we will improve.
GeneralGreen wrote:
An interesting post.
30 posts in your first morning, General? Not bad -- you'll be up to Monte's total in no time!
{edited to fix a dumb typo.} _________________ "If a path to the better there be, it begins with a full look at the worst." — Thomas Hardy
Last edited by coyote on Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:01 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Sep 29, 2004 Posts: 2330 Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
I posted a similar senario, where the States are absorbed by the Federal government: link. _________________ "That's the problem with mercy, kid... It just ain't professional" - Fast Eddie, The Color of Money
Joined: Sep 29, 2004 Posts: 2330 Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:07 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
jlw61 wrote:
People have these rights at birth, they do not need government's permission to have them, government must have the permission of the people to strip those rights. People who allow themselves to be subjigated by their government have given up their rights.
Many of the founding fathers predicted that the people would willingly give up their rights, destroying the Constitution and they are probably correct. History has shown this to be true. It works this way; the government tells the citizens that it needs more power to deal with "those people." The people assume that they aren't part of "those people" and gleefully give up their rights because they believe that the government is on "their side" against "those people." What the people fail to understand is that the expanded powers can be applied to anyone. "They just need the jurisdiction to get those people, not me, I'm a republican" (or democrat, it works both ways.) With new authority, lawyers twist and bend the expanded jurisdiction around to allow all kinds of new legislation that affects everyone. All the while, the tinfoil hat crowd is saying "I told you so." _________________ "That's the problem with mercy, kid... It just ain't professional" - Fast Eddie, The Color of Money
Joined: Oct 04, 2007 Posts: 209 Location: North-East USA
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
kpeavey wrote:
While rebellion may take hold, I think there is a fair chance it will result in fractionalization of the Republic. Without the energy and resource inputs, the chances of recombining the fractions into a single nation are slim at best. We have seen the best the US can be. It's all downhill from here, although we may hold together for a little while longer.
quotes for truth; keeping a nation that size requires huge amounts of resources
there is no fundamental reason for keeping such a huge nation together, especially if the states think they can do a better job of running things on their own
US wont break apart before Mexico, but once Mexico starts to fractionalize it will only be a matter of time
on the OTHER hand, with peak oil wars breaking out they would be wise to reconsider, since a unified nation will always have more military resources available at hand to defend itself, and there will be lots of defending to do in the next 50 years as we scramble to get at whatever energy scraps are left
personally id love to live to see the US break up, but hey im an anarchist id love to see any nation break up into tribal warfare
the racial arguments are spot on; racism is only a non-issue in good times; in bad times people will turn on those different from them in a heartbeat; race violence will become so commonplace that the 'racially tolerant' cities of today will seem like science fiction 50 years from now
the splits are predictable because we think like tribals and thus the first conflicts will circle around the fact that there are those among us that do not belong; it will start with race, then progress to religion, etc. ; like someone above said, somehow the people need to die, and these will be the reasons, history repeats itself all too predictably
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
Jack wrote:
Olle wrote:
What a load of horse crap!
Your posting is not particularly informative; in fact, it is more effective at impairing your reputation than anything else.
If you disagree with the premises or conclusions of the original post, it would be more appropriate to state your specific objections with references to the original post.
You 're right. It was just my emotional response. I think the guy is a troll, so I should not comment at all. _________________ Me Tar sands, you Jane
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:58 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
if people had trouble getting along when energy was plentiful, what reason is there to believe they'll get along better when energy is scarce ? _________________ http://www.LASIK-Flap.com/ ~ Health Warning about LASIK Eye Surgery
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
nutmeg wrote:
you mean no more gay pride parades and welfare checks for single mom "snow hos?" No more rainbow flags and celebrating diversity?
Aaaggghhhh, drill in ANWAR, drill here drill now, we must save multiculturalism and diversity!
Give me: image too big or give me death!
Is this supposed to be funny?
Its really rather offensive bigot.
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:14 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
GeneralGreen wrote:
socrates1fan wrote:
Many people that are of different cultural groups were born in the US and born into US culture. As cultures mix there is the assumption that they can easily be torn apart. It isn't all West Virginia(sorry to those from W Virginia) where people still have ridiculous social divisions. Millions of Americans of different groups worked together in the great depression just fine, suddenly consider themselves white or black,etc instead of midwesterners or Americans? I can see such as scenerio for maybe the baby boomers but not for my generation or the next generation.
Hnmm, Go venture to Mississippi...say Jackson on a Friday night..ride around a little bit in your car if your white..see what happens. The entire Deep South of the USA is a powder keg and the only thing keeping blacks and whites from not killing each other is welfare checks and on time oil and a government to keep law and order.
socrates1fan- all your reasoning is what you've seen for the past 50 years 'oil age'. I am a historian and I can tell you the history of multicultural societies....and in bad times what has happened...When push comes to shove people take sides...they will be forced to. All becasue your generation was spoon feed multicultural diversity...doesn't mean people believe it..It will be the first thing to fall by the way as the cliff event happens.
The Great Deppresion..The entire South was under Jim Crow laws and in the North many riots happened due to competion of jobs. No whites and blacks did not work together and hold hands during the depression on the contray.. And also during the depression most blacks in the South were sharecroppers...in 2012 they all moved to the city or are government payrole. Its not going to be a pretty picture there in the yrs ahead.
You have to understand in the USA...300 million people will be competing for jobs....then as they go unemployed they will competing for basic foods. It will be a zero sum game of who lives and who dies.
Quote:
I don't think the country will divide but I think governments in regions will be formed under a federal district. I feel that many districts would evolve including one that had the states each touching the great lakes and the southwest being its own district
First time I heard this....so you think the USA will go like the USSR...USSR-Ukraine, USSR Kazakstan-USSR Belarus...USA Great lakes-USA-Midwest....well maybe in some form but it wont have a Federal head.
Well of course, its the south!
Hmm, you make some excellent points but I don't see how my generation can simply spit out the multiculturalism we have been given since birth.
I understand people take sides but I think you'll see more likely religions or city districts taking sides.
It is possible but up here in the North I just don't see it happening.
Don't get me wrong, I mean you being a historian you probably know a lot more than I do about these sort of things but from the viewpoint of a teenager who has been spoon fed multiculturalism since birth I really don't see it happening. I've always had black friends or Jewish friends, etc and we have always gotten along the same as we would with anyone from the same group.
I may not understand the desperation people can go to. Living in a resource rich land with most shipping done by railroad I really don't see the major problem.
I think all too often the Great lake states(MN, WI, OH, IL, IN, MI)
are grouped with places like Kansas or Missouri which are historically, culturally, and economically different. I wouldn't be surprised if the Great Lakes broke off and took advantage of both rich resources, clean water, and vast avaliability of non-auto related transportation.
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
Actually, Jlw61 will tell you what your rights are. He has a gun.
socrates1fan wrote:
Your post is quiet interesting but in all honesty I must disagree.
I don't believe we are all going to start skipping about in joy but you are also forgetting that it isn't 1756.
I believe that as regions become more isolated the rights of the people will not be determined by government but rather local authority and the people themselves. Many people that are of different cultural groups were born in the US and born into US culture. As cultures mix there is the assumption that they can easily be torn apart. It isn't all West Virginia(sorry to those from W Virginia) where people still have ridiculous social divisions. Millions of Americans of different groups worked together in the great depression just fine, and even then, though crime rates were high smaller groups had the same rights they did before. What would make the people from my generation(or at least around here.) suddenly consider themselves white or black,etc instead of midwesterners or Americans? I can see such as scenerio for maybe the baby boomers but not for my generation or the next generation.
I don't think the country will divide but I think governments in regions will be formed under a federal district. I feel that many districts would evolve including one that had the states each touching the great lakes and the southwest being its own district.
_________________ Gravity is not a force, it is a boundary layer.
Everything is coincident.
Love: the state of suspended anticipation.
To get any appreciable distance from the Earth in
a sensible amount of time, you must lie.
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1092 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
anarky321 wrote:
personally id love to live to see the US break up, but hey im an anarchist id love to see any nation break up into tribal warfare
You didn't get your fill after 1991, tovarich? I would have thought it would be plenty for anyone. Even I didn't like seeing it. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
Nonsense.
I can imagine scenarios where the US might devolve into a truly fractured society, divided by the old, familiar common denominators.
Long before this happens however, you will endure an extended period facing individuals determined to preserve national harmony, with the means to enforce that will.
This idea that particular segments of society will "rise up" and attack each other simply won't be tolerated.
Perhaps far down the time line somewhere we might see the erosion of infrastructure which eventually leads to virtual impotence to exercise force to mandate conditions... I can't imagine how long that might be... a long time.
Till that mythical time, if ya can't play nice in the sandbox, your government will compel your cooperation by whatever means necessary.
Tell me I'm wrong.
Quote:
Hnmm, Go venture to Mississippi...say Jackson on a Friday night..ride around a little bit in your car if your white..see what happens.
No problem... never had a problem anywhere I've roamed. South Atlanta black enough for ya? Made many good friends there... Nobody will grab you guy... 'long as you're not a jerk off elitist snob of course. _________________ "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F Roberts.
Joined: Oct 23, 2005 Posts: 1791 Location: East of Eden
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
Aaron wrote:
Tell me I'm wrong.
You're right. The whole race war thing is way overspeculated. The idea that we're going to have these ethnically homogenous, autonomous regions duking it out with each other is a bit fanciful. In my opinion the possibility of the balkanization of North America has more to do with decreasing returns on maintenance costs than anything else. Could take a while to unravel, if it does at all. But I could definitely see it happening in the long run. _________________ "If a path to the better there be, it begins with a full look at the worst." — Thomas Hardy
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
News
Discussions
Resources
Members
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
). They will be taken away if we allow them to be (the rights, not the rocket launchers). In the future, it will become more difficult to protect them and ourselves. Will we? That remains to be seen. I'll admit our track record so far this century isn't so hot. Hopefully we will improve.
