Joined: Sep 03, 2007 Posts: 620 Location: Sunny Virginia, USA
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
MyOldTDiIsStillGoing wrote:
This post started with our friend the GeneralGreen, who BTW just joined PeakOil this morning and posted his first post at about 4:30amEST. Since then he started many other posted and been busy until about 5:30pmEST which he now in bed (if he is in the EU or watch fireworks over there to celebrate the US Independence day). Regardless, he posted 34 place, all with the same theme. See his log folks
....
So it now getting dark and the neighborhood fireworks are about an hour from getting started. We have that freedom to still move forward and as we celebrate this Independence Day of this country that those rebels created Just remember the lines from "America The Beautiful", it goes "God shed His grace on Thee" and the other line "and crowd her good with brotherhood..." as Ray Charles so beautifully sang out...a blind, black man, who was raised on a share-croppers land in the deep south.
America is doomed. I've heard that refrain over and over. Will America change? Yes. Will there be problems? Riots? Will some cities be abandoned? Will there be death, disease, and famine? Perhaps. However, I believe my great grandchildren will be reading about the demise of many things, but not America. _________________ When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:45 pm Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
GeneralGreen wrote:
The point is not that one race or religion is better or worse than any other.
What a lovely sentiment General! Let's see how long you can keep up that ebony and ivory theme, shall we...
Quote:
Immigrants by the thousands, hundreds of thousands, and millions are swarming over the land, diluting and destroying the Anglo-Saxon culture that established the country and made it great.
Doh! I guess some are a little bit better than others after all...you know, that whole 'downtown Jackson on a friday night' thing reminded me a little of this guy who used to hang around here...what his name? Oh yeah, I Like Plants. That was it. But he wasn't a 'European Historian' in Europe, so it must be a coincidence. Keep up the good work!
Joined: Jul 04, 2008 Posts: 181 Location: Europe: European Historian
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:41 pm Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
Cheap energy has made modern 300+ million person America possible. It won't hold together and the biomass can't support it.
I feel in 50 years those living in present day USA will look back at the time of 2008 and shake their heads in unbelief of the absolute stupidity, and laziness. Americans have become a very complacent people "and so have most Westerners" ...
Quote:
America is doomed. I've heard that refrain over and over. Will America change? Yes. Will there be problems? Riots? Will some cities be abandoned? Will there be death, disease, and famine? Perhaps. However, I believe my great grandchildren will be reading about the demise of many things, but not America.
Bless god hallelujah
Seriously...your great grand kids..lets say 50-55 years from now year 2060..The USA will be a totally differnt place then. All one needs to do is spend some time reading about peak oil and the energy crisis..and use the brains cells ones has...
Again read this below>From the book.
So will America survive?
Given that the answer to the question is “No,” a second question may be asked. Will the surviving small industrial population be “Out of America.”? The answer here would also appear to be “No.” By its policy of massive immigration of foreign cultures – races, languages, and religions – it is no longer a viable culture at all, but a fractionated multicultural mess that will hold together only as long as the “free” energy of fossil fuels holds out. It is not a people. It is an out-of-control, growth-addicted, energy-addicted, incredibly wasteful and destructive industrial cancer that is destroying not only itself but also its host – planet Earth. Its democratic form of government – a wonderful idea for a homogeneous population in a low-population-density, low-energy setting -- has slowly paralyzed as the population has been converted to a balkanized hodge-podge of competing races, languages, religions, and cultures. No single culture is in charge any longer. In a sense, the planet is a ship with 229 captains (countries), and the United States is a ship with no captain at all.
Joined: Dec 18, 2004 Posts: 4454 Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:59 pm Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
General, you're probably correct in your prediction. Left vs right politics, borrowing a phrase used once by Le Pen, will be a historical footnote, and everything will be about acquiring calories. Nothing else will matter, at least during the , uh, transition period.
Afterwards, who knows, but it will differ significantly and permanently from what we now know. Lasting geep racial and geographical divisions are a distinct possibility. Likely, in fact.
But the coming chaos is fairly east to predict. _________________ Got Dharma?
Joined: Jul 04, 2008 Posts: 181 Location: Europe: European Historian
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:20 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
Quote:
Well general, you do paint a vivid, if grim, picture. However, I must say that if your grasp of history and logic is anything like your grasp of language, then I have little to worry about. You confuse concepts, you seem to have no respect for the rights of the individual, you see races instead of people, and I believe you have picked the perfect avitar. I wonder if you've even watched The Patriot and thought about the character of Colonel William Tavington. In my narrow world view, he fancied himself a gentleman and was anything but.
Yes Ive seen the movie a few times and have it on DVD.
In the movie The Patriot (2000 film), a fictitious Colonel "Tavington" is portrayed (by Jason Isaacs) as a skilled but ruthless commander of a cavalry unit. The person is based on Tarleton. BANASTRE TARLETON or British Gen. B. Tarleton whom I hold in high regards and who was an outstanding leader of light cavalry.
A true hero of mine! Holding the rank of General at the age of only 26. And those most feared and finest soldier of the kings army of the War of American rebellion.
Joined: Sep 03, 2007 Posts: 620 Location: Sunny Virginia, USA
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:18 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
GeneralGreen wrote:
Cheap energy has made modern 300+ million person America possible. It won't hold together and the biomass can't support it.
... from now year 2060..The USA will be a totally differnt place then. All one needs to do is spend some time reading about peak oil and the energy crisis..and use the brains cells ones has...
Again read this below>From the book.
So will America survive?
Given that the answer to the question is “No,” a second question may be asked. Will the surviving small industrial population be “Out of America.”? The answer here would also appear to be “No.” By its policy of massive immigration of foreign cultures – races, languages, and religions – it is no longer a viable culture at all, but a fractionated multicultural mess that will hold together only as long as the “free” energy of fossil fuels holds out. It is not a people. It is an out-of-control, growth-addicted, energy-addicted, incredibly wasteful and destructive industrial cancer that is destroying not only itself but also its host – planet Earth. Its democratic form of government – a wonderful idea for a homogeneous population in a low-population-density, low-energy setting -- has slowly paralyzed as the population has been converted to a balkanized hodge-podge of competing races, languages, religions, and cultures. No single culture is in charge any longer. In a sense, the planet is a ship with 229 captains (countries), and the United States is a ship with no captain at all.
Yes, yes, a lovely book I'm sure. You are basing your premise on the conclusion of a book while I'm basing my conclusion on history and a first hand knowledge of Americans. Will the America we know, the 3000 mile Ceasar salad, the intercontinental jet set, the culture of riding the jet ski on Monday morning and skiing the powder in Aspen Monday evening, survive? I doubt it, but that is not America.
Your conclusion is falacious if you think people of different race/creed/color will be at each other's throat because we won't be able to buy an iPod or TV dinner. Further, your simple minded view of race relations in the US is based on ignorance and borders on racism.
It convinces me you have no idea what America and Americans are really like. This unlikely sudden and total collapse of everything is not really a believable scenario yet people keep using that as justification to their conclusions. Basing your predictions on a single (and rather unlikely) event seems like a dubious way to make an accurate prediction. Predicting details of the collapse on its people without a real understanding of those very same people is, as one candidate said, "entering the silly season".
I think the world outside of America is in much greater danger of total collapse since, as I understand it, a diversified portfolio is always better than putting all of your eggs in one basket. From where I sit, I see a lot of countries with baskets full of eggs. England has rolled the dice on the North Slope... oops. I hear France is rolling the dice on nukes while Germany seems to be rolling it on solar and wind. If China doesn't figure something out quick, they're going to be caught without oil during their industrial revolution. Japan? I shudder over their prospects, but hey, they are really industrious, so who knows?
But we're talking about American, so why don't we give it a the ol' college try instead of just predicing doom with a grin on our face?
While I do expect America (along with the rest of the world) to change, I do not see any justification on such dire predictions. Your prediction seems to be based on sudden and total collapse where America is then stranded without any resources. So nobody wants our food? Nobody is going to buy Windows 2009? Nobody is going to buy an iPod? Nobody want's to watch a movie? Nobody want to license out patents? Nobody is going to be willing to purchase things from American? The 5 million barrels of domestic oil we pump every day will run out at the same time? We won't be able to figure out a deal with Mexico or Canada? The nukes will quit pumping out power? We'll quit digging coal and harvesting natural gas? Hardly. America is not without resources and while I would not enjoy anything close to a further collapse on the dollar, it sure as heck isn't going to destroy America or its people.
Our fiat currency is in trouble and while I don't relish the idea of using metal coins and barter for buying things, it will happen if the bozo's in DC don't quit fracking around. But that's another rant.
I would however relish the idea of brining our military and all of our toys back home. We've got enough nukes, subs, and battle ships to protect our country and heck, I'll bet we'd even protect Canada if they asked for it (for a price in oil, of course). I'm not worried about being attacked since everyone knows we'd quite literally blow them up. With such a setting, I bet we'd spend tens of billions instead of hundreds of billions on the military each year.
The army breaking up? Hell yeah! We've got way too many people learning the killing trade and not enough prerfecting sustainable trade. We need thousands of soldiers, not hundreds of thousands. We need to man the silos and rotate the national guard throught the few bases that we need to keep things in shape. The feds don't need the big armed forces and the states can provide using the guard.
What will they be paid with? First, the young are idealistic and money is not the prime motivator. I point to the dismal paycheck that our armed forces receive as proof. Three squares a day, training and the opportunity to blow things up can do much for a young person. For the guard, a weekend for a small paycheck with some of the above stated perks will do much. I even foresee the guard members having access to free food stuffs to take home each month as partial payment. The good news is, as the rest of the world loses it's technological military, we'll hopefully be wise enough to shut ours down as well.
Medicaid, medicare, social security, etc, etc, etc... sure would hate to see them go, especially since most of my immediate family are entering that age, but it's not going to be sustainable. That's going to hurt, if not kill a lot of people. Those who prepared will have a chance. I also pity the fool who worked in the beltway for 30 years and expects to retire at age 50 with full retirement. Sorry, buddy, your career choice was ill advised!
Did I say that America would survive without loss? Gee, I hope not, because that would be crazy talk. The north is going to suffer greatly this winter or the next and each year after that. The south is going to discover that summers without air full conditioning suck and people will be weeded out who can't withstand the heat. Houses will begin to have only one or two rooms with air conditioning instead of the entire house.
Did I say we'd support 300 million in a style they live now? Nope, more crazy talk. Did I say we'd convert to electric cars and save everything? Again, crazy talk. Our chance to convert the US with a Manhattan style project was blown on a war in the Middle East. One trillion dollars could have done a lot of good, instead we blew the chance of a graceful and somewhat painless change-over from an oil culture.
I believe I will live to see non-religious based rural communities rely on the horse for primary transportation while receiving deliveries via 18 wheelers and trains. If the large farmer survivies (which he would have to in order to support 300 million in the short term) then he will have all the fuel he needs. America is going to lose the car in a big way. America is going to rediscover the passenger train as a primary long distance people mover.
Electric bicycles will become the vogue in the cities as will lightweight elecric cars, which will be not much more then enclosed elecric bicycles. People's sell by dates will collapse somewhat and we're going to adjust to the gradual, and at times, not so gradual depletion curve.
Financial collapse is the darkest cloud on the horizon right now, and while it's a storm that might hit, we don't yet know how hard, fast or long would last. If it comes closer, there are solutions and alternatives to mitigate it or lessen it's impact and if it is a full force gale, then there is clean-up (and most Americans know all about that). By the way, if the American Dollar does collapse to nothing, beleive me, everyone else in the world will suffer in a non-trivial and very personal way.
And it will be our fault... again! _________________ When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
Very unlikely that the US will break apart unless it is involved in a nuclear war.
It's something which the US can't afford so TPTB will go to any length to avoid it. Most likely "the people" won't go for that either.
But some guys get kicks out of making such predictions. Maybe their life is boring so they need to make up some drama. _________________ only the paranoid survive
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
btu2012 wrote:
Very unlikely that the US will break apart unless it is involved in a nuclear war.
It's something which the US can't afford so TPTB will go to any length to avoid it. Most likely "the people" won't go for that either.
But some guys get kicks out of making such predictions. Maybe their life is boring so they need to make up some drama.
It will be involved. Do you think the U.S. Russia, and China, not to speak of India, Isreal, and Pakistan, France, U.K., ect. won't fight over the resources, and the loser just says, o.k. you keep it, I will go without. With nothing to lose the idiots will push the button. Why not? They are just old atheistic men who believe in nothing after death. The people won't have much of a say. I'm guessing you still think the war in Iraq and Afganistan are because of weapons of mass destruction?
Joined: Sep 29, 2004 Posts: 2330 Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
The mettle of the US government has been tested before. Before the Civil War, the USA was a hodgepodge of "countries," as the states would often refer to themselves. The states designed the US government so that small states had a disproportional amount of say in matters. It was common for states to threaten secession if they didn't get what they wanted. Some states would even threaten to make alliances with foreign nations on their own - treason and this was all said in public! Imagine that today. The USA was a mess and many of the founding fathers predicted it's collapse.
The country that our founding fathers created finally collapsed when the southern states left the union. Congress, without a quorum, couldn't function. However, the executive branch and judicial branch were left intact. It was decided that these departing states represented hostile countries and that couldn't be tolerated. After they were defeated, they were readmitted to the new union which now had a vastly more powerful central government. No more threats of leaving the union, no more treasonous remarks on the floor of Congress. The country thereafter began its march to become the country that Washington and Hamilton dreamed of; one nation with a standing military engaged international commerce.
The modern US government will DO WHATEVER IT TAKES to keep the nation together. There are mountains of plans and strategies to deal with everything from peak oil to natural catastrophes to invasions from outer space and I kid you not on that last one. While life will get very bad for the average Joe, the US federal government has the resources to keep itself and it's military going for a long time - almost indefinitely. The SPR does not exist for us, it exists for the US military and that is what it is being saved for. Allowing citizens to possess small arms is of little consequence for the largest, best equipped and best trained military in the world.
The federal government will enforce order and keep the governments - local, state and federal, running no matter what. _________________ "That's the problem with mercy, kid... It just ain't professional" - Fast Eddie, The Color of Money
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
Kingcoal wrote:
The modern US government will DO WHATEVER IT TAKES to keep the nation together.
Quite correct. An obvious truth ignored only by ignorami and momma's boys. Or by ideological wussies of all stripes. _________________ only the paranoid survive
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
btu2012 wrote:
Kingcoal wrote:
The modern US government will DO WHATEVER IT TAKES to keep the nation together.
Quite correct. An obvious truth ignored only by ignorami and momma's boys. Or by ideological wussies of all stripes.
My point exactly.
Look closely at the photos above.
Long after the stores run out of food, and the gas stations all run dry, we will still be producing and servicing these weapon platforms.
Eventually the corrosion of America's economy might lead to domestic fighting on a large scale. But military spending will be among the last to go.
You're absolutely right... this isn't 1950's America.
The governments control of the media, as well as sheer killing power vastly exceeds what existed in 1950.
And it will be deployed to confront all forms of wide-spread domestic violence... for many, many years.
You should really be more concerned about what other nations might do as depletion deepens.
The premise of this thread is rather silly actually.
Ethnic groups will achieve cohesion, rise up and confront the US military?
Umm.... ok. _________________ "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F Roberts.
Joined: Jul 04, 2008 Posts: 181 Location: Europe: European Historian
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
Aaron wrote:
btu2012 wrote:
Kingcoal wrote:
The modern US government will DO WHATEVER IT TAKES to keep the nation together.
Quite correct. An obvious truth ignored only by ignorami and momma's boys. Or by ideological wussies of all stripes.
My point exactly.
Look closely at the photos above.
Long after the stores run out of food, and the gas stations all run dry, we will still be producing and servicing these weapon platforms.
Eventually the corrosion of America's economy might lead to domestic fighting on a large scale. But military spending will be among the last to go.
You're absolutely right... this isn't 1950's America.
The governments control of the media, as well as sheer killing power vastly exceeds what existed in 1950.
And it will be deployed to confront all forms of wide-spread domestic violence... for many, many years.
You should really be more concerned about what other nations might do as depletion deepens.
The premise of this thread is rather silly actually.
Ethnic groups will achieve cohesion, rise up and confront the US military?
Umm.... ok.
Being the mod her you are are not super smart...
OK..anyway.. What do you think will happen as the USA is broke? I mean USD worthless? That means no oil....lack of capital ect...read some history please...of the 5 Great depressions that hit the USA since 1789.
Media....OK When USA suffers 50% unemployment please come back and lets talk..please do some history of which you know none of...Many Chinese in the 1800s were killed in cold blood due to competition of jobs...Think that will change? I dont... And it will be Mexicans vs blacks vs white vs Muslim ect....
Stand in a bread line...when your family is on the verge of starvation... Things change.
For knowing peak oil you sir are pretty low on brain capacity.
Code:
And it will be deployed to confront all forms of wide-spread domestic violence... for many, many years.
many ...many...read about the American Revolution..type in' mutiny"
Just what will the US soldiers be fighting for "most need an ideology. And for what pay? Worthless dollars? And for what? So 10 million more Mexicans come come into the USA as their families starve to death? Just why will millions die? Its a volunteer ARMY...draft...have fun with that in the USA! Yeah I can imagine..I being from Ohio...fighting and dieing so 10,000,000 Mexicans can receive amnesty as my family starves to death...OK...what ever..I don't think US Kids and young men have been that dumbed down..it appears you have Arron.
.
You sir have no idea of the crisis at hand..
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