Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Electric car maker poised to shock auto industry
mos6507 wrote:
An EESTOR device could be used as a substitute for a battery. Regular caps can't. So that's a semantical argument.
To an extent it is. Caps can last hundreds of thousands of cycles, maybe millions, while the best batteries can still only last thousands. _________________
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 3740 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: Electric car maker poised to shock auto industry
yesplease wrote:
mos6507 wrote:
An EESTOR device could be used as a substitute for a battery. Regular caps can't. So that's a semantical argument.
To an extent it is. Caps can last hundreds of thousands of cycles, maybe millions, while the best batteries can still only last thousands.
Tell that to AltairNano, but that's a different story of course... _________________ Paranoia is demonstrated to be an infectious disease, and stupidity plus the internet its major vector.
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:55 pm Post subject: Re: Electric car maker poised to shock auto industry
idiom wrote:
If you put a bunch of caps in a row then its a battery.
Its not a battery of Chemical Cells, but its a battery.
It depends if you mean battery in terms of energy storage in general or battery in terms of electrochemical cells. In terms of just energy, a flywheel, gallon of liquid fuel, ton of coal, or anything of that sort is a battery. So... like almost everything it likely depends. _________________
Joined: Aug 23, 2004 Posts: 474 Location: New Zealand
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:37 pm Post subject: Re: Electric car maker poised to shock auto industry
My facetious smily doesn't work.
A battery is a group of things:
Quote:
1. Electricity. a. Also called galvanic battery, voltaic battery. a combination of two or more cells electrically connected to work together to produce electric energy.
b. cell (def. 7a).
2. any large group or series of related things: a battery of questions.
In symantic land, a battery /= an energy storage device.
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 3740 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:00 am Post subject: Re: Electric car maker poised to shock auto industry
yesplease wrote:
mos6507 wrote:
Tell that to AltairNano, but that's a different story of course...
Even then they'll only (I know, only... ) last ~25,000 cycles compared to the 1,000,000 ultracap modules are rated at.
Not that I necessarily believe their claims or think they will go anywhere with their batteries, but as a practical comparison of the claims...
At 1 full discharge a day, that's a lifespan of 68 years. I'd be dead and my daughter would be rocking in a wheelchair in the post-peak-oil homestead before an off-grid battery bank of AltairNanos wore out. So that's good enough for me.
So AltairNanos could be almost equally game-changing. The big difference is EESTOR claims more energy density than AltairNanos, hence longer range with an EV, long enough to convert the reluctant. But an AltairNano EV would still be feasible. _________________ Paranoia is demonstrated to be an infectious disease, and stupidity plus the internet its major vector.
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:13 am Post subject: Re: Electric car maker poised to shock auto industry
I've had enough of your making sense you!
The only problem I could see is if the batteries aged out before they could really be used since testing hasn't been done on 'em for long enough yet. Cost may also be a problem according to EESTOR's claims. $2000/kWh versus $100/kWh, but even then that's splitting hairs considering that at $2,000 kWh they would only have to last ~10,000 cycles to be as good as LiFePO4 cells. _________________
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 3740 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:57 am Post subject: Re: Electric car maker poised to shock auto industry
yesplease wrote:
The only problem I could see is if the batteries aged out before they could really be used since testing hasn't been done on 'em for long enough yet.
Right, but one of the big things people are worried about with supercapacitors is breakage of the internal nano-sized filaments. So there will probably also be some long-term degradation of EESTOR packs in vehicles. We don't know yet.
yesplease wrote:
Cost may also be a problem according to EESTOR's claims. $2000/kWh versus $100/kWh, but even then that's splitting hairs considering that at $2,000 kWh they would only have to last ~10,000 cycles to be as good as LiFePO4 cells.
Up front costs are the reason why EVs and alternative energy in general is an uphill battle with the consumer. For utility applications which can sink huge initial capital expenses, they can do it. For Joe sixpack, he has a hard time even justifying the relatively small premium of a parallel hybrid. So selling him a vehicle with a $20K+ battery pack under the pretense that "gee, but it will last you a lifetime" is still a hard sell. He has to do the math for when it's going to pay itself back.
So being able to technically do something is fine, but you have to also show that you can cost reduce it. That's what's driven the computer industry, for instance. I firmly do NOT believe that something like Moore's Law applies to all technological endeavors but I do recognize that that's what it TAKES for something to be a "game changer". _________________ Paranoia is demonstrated to be an infectious disease, and stupidity plus the internet its major vector.
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:12 am Post subject: Re: Electric car maker poised to shock auto industry
I wonder if a few years down the road big auto manufacturers will offer finanance packages w/ 'em in order to levelize costs and let the vehicle seem available to the consumer? In any event, the way oil prices are going EVs are going to be cost reduced relative to conventional cars regardless of whether or not advances/mass production gets pricing down. The only thing keeping people on the fence IMO is what exactly demand will do. If oil can defend itself around ~$150/bbl for the next year or two, or maybe even go higher, EVs, even as they are today, will take off. Otoh, even if it doesn't crash like it did in the 80s, which I really doubt it will, dropping back down to ~$80-100 would kill anyone in the EV market IMO. _________________
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: Re: Electric car maker poised to shock auto industry
The first good alternative car will cause the gas to drop like a rock. The saudis have a vested interest also in keeping the fuel flowing. Thats what happned in the 80's. THAT is their biggest fear. That we wont NEED their crap anymore.
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 3740 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: Electric car maker poised to shock auto industry
joelcolorado wrote:
The first good alternative car will cause the gas to drop like a rock. The saudis have a vested interest also in keeping the fuel flowing. Thats what happned in the 80's. THAT is their biggest fear. That we wont NEED their crap anymore.
That's a really naive argument on multiple levels.
No alternative car at this late stage in the game will be able to do anything more than maybe let us tread water with oil prices as the decline starts, and even that is an optimistic scenario. It just takes too damn long to scale out and we've "run out the clock" as Simmons says. Toyota can't even make enough Prii to keep up with demand and that's a vehicle that has been in production for over a decade. This oil shock is happening too fast for corporations to evolve. It's the business equivalent of the asteroid impact that killed off the dinosaurs. Small grass roots companies like Aptera are like the mammals that will probably wind up inheriting what's left of the industry. Just don't expect a vehicle like that in everybody's driveway. _________________ Paranoia is demonstrated to be an infectious disease, and stupidity plus the internet its major vector.
Joined: Aug 24, 2005 Posts: 338 Location: Costa Geriatrica, Spain
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Electric car maker poised to shock auto industry
Quote:
EEStor says its system, combining battery and ultracapacitor technology and based on modified barium titanate ceramic powder, could power a car for 400 kilometres with regular performance. It claims the unit would charge in a few minutes and weigh less than 10% of current lead-acid batteries for the same cost.
If I tried that on my house supply in Spain it would blow up. I can barely run a water heater, kettle and fridge at the same time. How many amps would you need to charge a capacitor to run a car 'with regular performance' for 400Km 'in a few minutes'?
Peak Barium? Peak Titanium? are either of these likely to limit ramp up?
Night time charging when normal demand is least would obviously be required to avoid overloading the electricity supply... and I think it would have to be trickle charge, not fast charge.
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) last ~25,000 cycles compared to the 1,000,000 ultracap modules are rated at.
