For a minute there I thought I had to get off my couch, when all the while the fact is we don't have to do anything much but keep things afloat for just a few decades more! In fact, we'd best shut up about PO, because if our offspring finds out we knew about it all along, they'll turn and wring our necks come 2036!
Do most here understand the true dimensions of human pain ?
yes
31%
[ 11 ]
no
45%
[ 16 ]
I don't know
22%
[ 8 ]
Total Votes : 35
Author
Message
Shannymara Master
Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 5138 Location: Oklahoma
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:35 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
I grew up in a house where that kind of thing went on. Having been through that, and now being a parent myself, I can say that it's hard (impossible, reallly) to keep firearms available in a way that's both adequate for home defense (i.e. you can get to them quick and they're already loaded) and keep the kid(s) safe at the same time. If I was a single mom there's no way I could keep a loaded pistol by my bed without risking my child's life, even with education. Then there are those who are afraid of firearms, or who live in places where it's hard to obtain them legally. Plus doing violence, even when it's justified, wounds us too.
I understand that kind of victim behavior, but I've never had it myself. The one time my mom's abuser messed with me, I went after him with a machete right away. I was 11 or 12 then. The coward picked up my little brother to use as a shield. I don't know what I would do if I saw him today, and vengeance can seem like a tempting fantasy, but if I did anything to hurt him I'm sure it would hurt me emotionally and spiritually (a lot) in the process too. I'm not trying to be holier than thou or anything, it's just something I've learned over time about myself. Still, nobody will assault me twice.
I moved out when I was pretty young to get away from that crap.
Oh, by the way americandream, my family was extremely wealthy, and had been for several generations, when all this was going on. Rich people are just as f*cked up as the rest of us. _________________ "Every junkie's like a setting sun..." - Neil Young
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:44 am Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
Shannymara wrote:
I don't know what I would do if I saw him today, and vengeance can seem like a tempting fantasy, but if I did anything to hurt him I'm sure it would hurt me emotionally and spiritually (a lot) in the process too. I'm not trying to be holier than thou or anything, it's just something I've learned over time about myself. Still, nobody will assault me twice.
Sometimes those coming from abusive households tend to take vengeance on people who had nothing to do with it.
Some of them develop uncanny political talents.
It's never black and white. Those who view themselves as victims can be the worst abusers.
It takes a while to know what everyone is made of.
Joined: May 27, 2008 Posts: 61 Location: middle of the USA
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
I'm going to respond to the original question here, and ignore a lot of the more recent posts.
We are actively looking at purchasing a doomsday farm, and I have given some thought to the so-called zombies.
The question of what I would do if faced with starving refugees is a difficult one that's made easier if the people are abstract, not real people, begging for some food, possibly with children.
Nobody will be able to take in more than a handful of refugees. That means people will either have to forcefully turn them away, possibly endangering neighbors who may not have the manpower to keep a 24 hour watch, or else take, shall we say, more permanent action.
The choices would be even more heart-rending if children are involved.
The current Sweden thread started with a wikipedia link to a list of famines:
It was an eye-opener for me. Even European countries seemed to face a serious famine every century or so, and China and India (probably home to a third of the world population in premodern times as well as today) faced famine situations whenever a harvest was even slightly below average.
That means most people alive in preindustrial times worried about dying of starvation at some time in their lives.
People can't really comprehend that level of suffering. One's choices are pretty much
1) Avoid seeing pictures of starving people or get callous their plight.
2) Try to help a few people either chosen at random, or whoever you happen to hear about that you can help.
3) Become an aid worker and do your best until you realize that each woman you save now will have several kids that starve later.
I guess there are a few other choices, but I think that covers the ones normal people might choose.
There will be massive amounts of suffering until
1) the human race is extinct, or
2) Every single group alive practices birth control. (One of Malthus's observations was that the groups with the highest birthrate tend to dominate, numerically. So if only 5% of the population has a high fertility rate, that group will be 50% or more of the population in a few hundred years.)
Mind you, I do believe we will be in for serious global warming which will bring the population down to somewhere between 10,000 and 100,000,000 people. Plenty of suffering no matter how much birth control we use now. I figure I have an obligation to stay strong for my kids' sakes. Otherwise I probably wouldn't bother trying to survive the dieoff.
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:40 am Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
btu2012 wrote:
I have been disturbed for a long time by what I perceive as a strong tendency of many posters to minimize human suffering.
There seems to be a quite pervasive attitude of almost enjoying the human pain which is to come, an attitude of "bring it on" which might be motivated by some people's dissatisfaction with, and hatred of, our current civilization, or perhaps of their own position within it.
Many here seem to talk with ease and even glibness about extremely serious things such as widespread famine, war, disease, societal collapse, breaks in law and order, the possibility of civil war(s), "zombie hordes" etc -- as if they were taking perverse satisfaction in the likelyhood of these things.
It also seems to me that there is a correlation between this attitude and lack of experience of human suffering, whose dimensions and intensity some people around here seem to underestimate.
I would like to ask for other people's opinions about the origin of this phenomenon and about its possible implications for the future.
Are certain people simply spoiled ? Are they too young and thus don't know what they are talking about ? Do they find some sick pleasure in decay and disaster --and if so, why ? Do they simply want to show off by shocking others ?
What is your opinion ?
I'm not sure. My guess, and this is only a guess, is that the attitudes you have mentioned belong to a) antisocial personality types b) normal folks who are either jejune or "whistling in the dark" trying to pretend they have the capacity to survive come what may...
Regarding "survivalism" in general, I think that anyone expecting to exist while all those "stupid other people" die off, etc. are kind of like this:
Not that I'm knocking preparedness, but there is only so much one could EVER do to prepare for a catastrophe of the magnitude some suggest.
As for human suffering, it pains me to think of it. Every child has a mother, every adult was once someone's child. I hate to think of it. People may piss me off at times, but when push comes to shove I love my fellow humans. I don't want to see anyone hurt. The folks who genuinely want billions of people to suffer and die are, to say the least, sick on some level.
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I don't know what I would do if I saw him today, and vengeance can seem like a tempting fantasy, but if I did anything to hurt him I'm sure it would hurt me emotionally and spiritually (a lot) in the process too. I'm not trying to be holier than thou or anything, it's just something I've learned over time about myself. Still, nobody will assault me twice.
