How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
I've asked you before in a PM, now I ask you openly.
What's your deal?
Your posts are always the same - some BS, not-gonna-happen pseudo-science crap.
Are you just a frightened cornucopian with nothing better to do?
What motivates you to keep posting this crap?
Shell is an oil company. They don't care about anything else.
The only reason they put that page up is because it's good PR for the DSEs. _________________ Massive Human Dieoff must occur as a result of Peak Oil. Many more than half will die. It will occur everywhere, including where you live. If you fail to recognize this, then your odds of living move toward the "going to die" group.
Is a cornucopian the same thing as a unicorn? I do love unicorns.
And you are very wrong about Hydrogen and Shell. Hydrogen fuel cells are already on the road now albeit in small numbers. From humble beginings. Remember the ICE wasn't taken very seriously back in 1885 when it was first introduced.
Who are you Cashmere? A depressed little boy who sees a poison black cloud everywhere?
Royal Dutch Shell has a hydrogen division, a solar division, a wind division and others. Shell has invested more in alternative energy than any other energy producer. And that is what we are, an energy producer not just an oil company. You need to open your eyes
Royal Dutch Shell has a hydrogen division, a solar division, a wind division and others. Shell has invested more in alternative energy than any other energy producer. And that is what we are, an energy producer not just an oil company. You need to open your eyes
I think Vampryegirl has sent us a message.
Hydrogen is just another way to store energy for re-use. Like batteries, flywheels, compressed air, capacitors or what have you. Let us see what is the most efficient in the marketplace, without subsidies. _________________ Civilization is a personal choice.
Joined: Dec 16, 2004 Posts: 705 Location: Santa Monica, CA
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:18 am Post subject: Re: Hydrogen potential
vampyregirl wrote:
And you are very wrong about Hydrogen and Shell. Hydrogen fuel cells are already on the road now albeit in small numbers.
A handful of H2 cars can't grow into a sizable fraction of 500 million cars in any timeframe meaningful to make a difference. We don't have 40 years of cheap oil to insure a smooth transition.
people underestimate the task of building a fuel production and distribution network. The EIA estimates that the costs will be in the trillions. How are we going to pay for it? Who's going to build it, especially when there isn't a broad population of customers ready to finance returns this investment? This problem is why even the most enthusiastic proponents of the hydrogen economy don't expect any near term H2 presence in the marketplace.
vampyregirl wrote:
From humble beginings.
Too bad for those counting on a fuel cell revolution. If it were to happen, we would not be in the stage of humble beginnings right now.
A cornucopian is someone who believes that continued progress and provision of material items for mankind can be met by advances in technology.
Quote:
Royal Dutch Shell has a hydrogen division, a solar division, a wind division and others. Shell has invested more in alternative energy than any other energy producer. And that is what we are, an energy producer not just an oil company. You need to open your eyes
"We"? As the expression goes, you got a turd in your pocket? Otherwise we'll make our picks on our own, thank you. _________________ Cogito, ergo non satis bibivi
Walter, there is an unspoken message here.
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: Re: Hydrogen potential
vampyregirl wrote:
Is a cornucopian the same thing as a unicorn? I do love unicorns.
And you are very wrong about Hydrogen and Shell. Hydrogen fuel cells are already on the road now albeit in small numbers. From humble beginings. Remember the ICE wasn't taken very seriously back in 1885 when it was first introduced.
Who are you Cashmere? A depressed little boy who sees a poison black cloud everywhere?
Royal Dutch Shell has a hydrogen division, a solar division, a wind division and others. Shell has invested more in alternative energy than any other energy producer. And that is what we are, an energy producer not just an oil company. You need to open your eyes
I need to open my eyes?
They are open.
Here's what I see . . .
7 fold increase in the price of oil over 8 years.
Tripling and more of basic food prices.
Grain stocks at historic lows.
Starvation in West Timor.
Standard of Living plummeting in western world.
Natural Gas supplies showing signs of collapse.
U.S. economy in deepening recession.
What the Hell are you looking at?
You work for Shell, so your opinion on this matter is horribly skewed.
Shell doesn't give a sh-t about alternative energy. They are an oil company.
Fuel cells can never be implemented beyond a few PR crowd pleasers.
Do everybody a favor - put "I WORK FOR SHELL" in your sig line so nobody has to wonder why you incessantly post this cornucopian nonsense. _________________ Massive Human Dieoff must occur as a result of Peak Oil. Many more than half will die. It will occur everywhere, including where you live. If you fail to recognize this, then your odds of living move toward the "going to die" group.
Joined: Aug 30, 2005 Posts: 267 Location: Second Vermont Republic
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Hydrogen potential
vampyregirl wrote:
Who are you Cashmere? A depressed little boy who sees a poison black cloud everywhere?
I put him on my ignore list, the only person on the board so honored. It has nicely lowered my blood pressure and made the average PO post significantly more erudite at a stroke.
Joined: Oct 11, 2005 Posts: 407 Location: Arizona, USA
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Hydrogen potential
I think it would be easier to just post her poorly thought out ideas on a cornucopian website than have to create a massive ignore list of all the people on this board who see through the hydrogen myths.
The big problem with bringing Hydrogen into the mainstream is a financial problem. Fuel cells are much more expensive than ICEs. It will take years before they can begin to compete with the ICE on the retail market.
ENERGY PRODUCER. Oil is just one form of energy.
Doomers please put SUFFERS FROM CLINICAL DEPRESSION in your sig so I will know what to expect from you
Is a cornucopian the same thing as a unicorn? I do love unicorns.
And you are very wrong about Hydrogen and Shell. Hydrogen fuel cells are already on the road now albeit in small numbers. From humble beginings. Remember the ICE wasn't taken very seriously back in 1885 when it was first introduced.
Who are you Cashmere? A depressed little boy who sees a poison black cloud everywhere?
Royal Dutch Shell has a hydrogen division, a solar division, a wind division and others. Shell has invested more in alternative energy than any other energy producer. And that is what we are, an energy producer not just an oil company. You need to open your eyes
I need to open my eyes?
They are open.
Here's what I see . . .
7 fold increase in the price of oil over 8 years.
Tripling and more of basic food prices.
Grain stocks at historic lows.
Starvation in West Timor.
Standard of Living plummeting in western world.
Natural Gas supplies showing signs of collapse.
U.S. economy in deepening recession.
What the Hell are you looking at?
You work for Shell, so your opinion on this matter is horribly skewed.
Shell doesn't give a sh-t about alternative energy. They are an oil company.
Fuel cells can never be implemented beyond a few PR crowd pleasers.
Do everybody a favor - put "I WORK FOR SHELL" in your sig line so nobody has to wonder why you incessantly post this cornucopian nonsense.
There is a yuppie class in China that didn't exist even ten years ago. There is a growing middle class in India and in Brazil. I live in Alberta which has become the wealtheist province in Canada. Apparently you only see half the economic picture.
If you are unaware of what Shell is doing the fields of wind and solar energy, which include windmill farms in the North Sea, the Texas panhandle and in China, the rural electrification projects in China and Avancis, the joint venture with Saint Gobain to build thin film solar panels then you obviously know nothing about the energy so why did you join an energy related forum?
I don't know anything about cornucopians but i do love unicorns.
--H2 is the smallest molecule in the universe. It wants to escape even through stainless steel welds on tanks, pipelines, reformers, etc.
--H2 does not exist in free form. It must be created either from Natural gas or electrolysis of H20. This takes energy, thus H2 is not an energy source. Just use the electricity.
--H2 fuel cells are too damned expensive, contain precious metals (titanium) in decline. And are very costly to refit
--H2 must be compressed to 5,000 psi run a car 50 miles, 10,000 psi to go 100. A broke 5,000 tank is a dangerous weapon. A 10,000 psi tank is a small nuclear weapon. Would you want to sit on one and risk an accident.
--There is no H2 infrastructure. No place to fuel cars. No pipelines. No reformers. Not enough electrical generation to replace ICE's.
As pstarr points out hydrogen is a poor energy storage medium.
The cheapest way to make hydrogen is from natural gas. It is more efficient to use natural gas in a combustion engine to do work than use the same natural gas to make hydrogen, loose some in storage, convert it to electricity, then use the electricity to do same work.
Oh and any old gasoline engine can be converted to natural gas for a few thousand dollars, vs. a hundred thousand plus for a fuel cell car.
So what is it about Shell Hydrogen that is not just PR shilling?
Does Shell make 'free' hydrogen from aether?
Quote:
What we do
We work with partners to promote and support the development of the infrastructure and technical solutions that the world needs to make hydrogen a practical, safe and efficient fuel. We are actively involved in demonstration projects around the world. We are the only major energy company involved in fuel cell vehicle demonstrations
There are hydrogen filling stations although not many yet. It is a myth that hydrogen tanks explode if punctured. Testing has been done on that. A big problem with bringing fuel cells into the mainstream is the financial problem. Fuel cells can't begin to compete with the ICE retail. It will take time before they can.
Is there a future for Hydrogen? Of course there is. Remember people once said the ICE wouldn't fly either. Before that people didn't have much faith in the steam engine when it was first introduced.
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ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap 
