We are entering the stage where ideology and education about sustainability and living within carrying capacity will be augmented by the reality of identifiable consequences of our overshoot. External consequences like the peaking and decline of below ground energy and commodity resources, above ground environmental degradation of our climate, soils, fisheries and climate will have a profound effect on our culture.
2009 is the year when we start to feel it.
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: NASA: 300 Trillion Barrels of Proven Hydrocarbon Reserve
There definitely wouldn't be any more oxygen if all that was burned. Just need a way to siphon it from 1 billion miles away. _________________ People first, then things, then dollars.
There will be enslavement, cannibalism, & zombie invasions.
Joined: Dec 25, 2005 Posts: 613 Location: Hillsboro, West Virginia
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: Titan's surface organics surpass oil reserves on Earth
BigTex wrote:
No, no, no, this can work... Problem solved.
No, it can't work, either. The fundamental problem is the fact that more energy is required, in even the most favorable shipping scenario, for making the delta-vees (particularly that for Earth arrival) than could be recovered by burning any hydrocarbon cargo.
Saturn's perihelion distance is 9.05 AU. The best Saturn-to-Earth Hohmann transfer orbit would have a semimajor axis of
a = (9.05+1)/2 = 5.03 AU
The sun-relative speed of a cargo ship following that transfer orbit, at its arrival at Earth's orbit, would be
GM = 1.32712440018E+20 m^3 sec^-2
AU = 1.49597870691E+11 meters
v = sqrt{(GM/AU) (2 - 1/5.03)} = 53648 m/s
Assume that the cargo ship is playing catch-up with Earth, a condition that minimizes the energy needed for the cargo ship to make orbital rendezvous with Earth. Earth's orbital speed is
ve = sqrt(GM/AU) = 29784 m/s
The difference is
dv'' = v-ve = 23864 m/s
Now, Earth's gravity will speed up the cargo ship somewhat on approach. On the other hand, the cargo ship doesn't have to come to a full stop, relative to Earth, since it's bound for a parking orbit. The speed up from Earth's gravity is a conservation of energy problem. Let's assume the parking orbit has an altitude of 1000 kilometers.
R = Re + 1000 km = 7378000 meters
GMe = 3.986E+14 m^3 sec^-2
dv' = sqrt{ (dv'')^2 + 2GMe/R }
dv' = 26030 m/s
However, the circular orbit speed around Earth will be
vc = sqrt{GMe/R} = 7350 m/s
So the delta-vee needed to park the cargo ship, arriving from Saturn via transfer orbit, has a minimum of
dv = dv' - vc = 18680 m/s
Roughly estimated, of course.
Now, how much energy is required to accelerate a kilogram of payload to 18680 m/s, assuming that the fuel itself has no mass?
E = (1/2) (1 kg) (18680 m/s)^2 = 1.745E+8 Joules
The energy from burning 1 kilogram of gasoline is 4.5E+7 Joules, which is only about 1/4 of what you'd have to spend to slow that kilogram of gasoline down at the arrival end of the transfer orbit. And that's assuming that you have a massless fuel and a massless cargo ship superstructure. It also neglects the energy used in the departure delta-vee at the Saturn end of the transfer.
So forget bringing Titan hydrocarbons to Earth. Costs too much.
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:36 pm Post subject: Re: Titan's surface organics surpass oil reserves on Earth
Okay I got it. I was out the other night and someone pointed out TITAN to me. I noticed it was uphill from the earth. Knowing something about syphoning, this is gonna be easy as fluids will run downhill once you get them started.
The current use of oil is like a giant suction they say, sucking the reserves dry, so we can use that suction to start the syphon and we can then use all the free fuel from TITAN
Joined: Dec 25, 2005 Posts: 613 Location: Hillsboro, West Virginia
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:21 pm Post subject: Re: Titan's surface organics surpass oil reserves on Earth
joelcolorado wrote:
Okay I got it. I was out the other night and someone pointed out TITAN to me. I noticed it was uphill from the earth. Knowing something about syphoning, this is gonna be easy as fluids will run downhill once you get them started. The current use of oil is like a giant suction they say, sucking the reserves dry, so we can use that suction to start the syphon and we can then use all the free fuel from TITAN
Well, you can get Titan hydrocarbons to Earth without braking on arrival. The thing is, you sort of have to use the Earth itself as the stopper and find a way to make use of the impact energy (a hydrogen bomb's worth or so) which will all be released as heat the instant the cargo ship crashes.
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:15 am Post subject: Re: Titan's surface organics surpass oil reserves on Earth
I am going to use a hose so that we can put a valve on it and regulate how much we get here. Walmart has them on clearance this week.
hahha
Yes, too bad we have not harnessed the sun. Good grief.
My friend has a passive solar house and its NICE and henever has a heating bill all winter. Has to vent it as it gets TOO hot. If every house built from now on was like that, we would elimnate the need for heating over time.
That is just a simple OLD type solar heat. There are newer and could be better ways out there in the future if we WANTED to do it.
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:19 pm Post subject: Re: Titan's surface organics surpass oil reserves on Earth
nobodypanic wrote:
Serial_Worrier wrote:
Yay! Let's suck Titan dry, then on to the next planet/moon we can suck dry. "The Matrix" pegged humanity perfectly.
IIRC, hydrocarbons are a renewable resource on titan.
aside from that, i don't get the disgust you're displaying w/respect to acquiring resources from space.
It takes energy to get into space. Saturn Five rocket burned 15 tons of propellant every second lifting off.
You need to study eroei, net energy, etc. if you want to have an intelligent conversation around here. Use the search button up top. _________________ "The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function."
--Dr. Albert A. Bartlett, Emeritus Professor of Physics, University of Colorado; World Population Balance Board of Advisors
Joined: Dec 25, 2005 Posts: 613 Location: Hillsboro, West Virginia
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Titan's surface organics surpass oil reserves on Earth
Serial_Worrier wrote:
No I am addicted to hydrocarbons and I say let's suck every last drop out of TITAN. Might as well face it, we're addicted to oil!
If you were part of a colony orbiting Titan, those hydrocarbons would probably make a dandy energy resource in combination with oxygen extracted from nearby ice. Assuming that the colony never, for reasons of other habitat limitations, exceeded 10,000 people, the Titan resource might last a billion years.
All times are GMT - 6 Hours Goto page Previous1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
News
Discussions
Resources
Members
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
