Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:10 pm Post subject: Re: Democrats Cave-In On Offshore Drilling
Offshore drilling is only going to amount to a small fraction of today's oil consumption in the U.S. at the peak of its extraction 15-25 years after it is started...
...meaning, it's not going to do anything to lower gasoline prices and further risks making our oceans even more polluted.
The best solution is to use less oil. We have technology for electric cars with 200+ miles range and it would be affordable in mass production; we can have no-compromise 80 mpg midsize cars and 35 mpg full size SUVs with proper attention to aerodynamics; force the automakers to produce them immediately with their next model year or they can't sell cars here! They've already developed prototypes since the 1970s that were market ready, but never sold them. Given that the auto fleet turns over every 17 years, we'd cut our oil consumption by nearly 30% in that timeframe without any sacrifice just from changing our automobiles(and we could be doing plenty of that too).
Of course, this would have the side effect of saving Joe sixpack money and transferring less of his money to society's elite, therefore neither democrats nor republicans like the idea. They support more drilling and more oil use because it keeps us spending money, but the real problem is that we're spending/consuming too much. We can have the same living standard on less resources, but it means that a wealthy few won't be as wealthy.
Forget more drilling. It's a losing proposition because it does not address the underlying problem that we are consuming an irreplacable resource, and consuming far much more than we need to for a given living standard. We need a form of conservation that focuses on first and foremost saving the average American money and encouraging less spending. _________________ The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 3140 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:49 pm Post subject: Re: Democrats Cave-In On Offshore Drilling
The_Toecutter wrote:
Offshore drilling is only going to amount to a small fraction of today's oil consumption in the U.S. at the peak of its extraction 15-25 years after it is started...
Everybody's turned into armchair oil men these days. They think they know better than geologists. I think the public just need to find that out about oil depletion and supply vs. demand the hard way. Just give them the closure they want and we can move down the line to the next stage of grief.
The_Toecutter wrote:
force the automakers to produce them immediately with their next model year or they can't sell cars here!
They might just go out of business before we have a chance of dictating to them. We might just wind up with a DIY conversion future after all. _________________ Peak oil is sort of like a mental Everlasting Gobstopper, except it tastes like ass and you can't get it out of your mouth.
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:48 am Post subject: Re: Democrats Cave-In On Offshore Drilling
MonsieurX wrote:
The_Toecutter wrote:
we are consuming an irreplacable resource
Um, no we aren't. Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe and carbon is the fourth most common element in the universe. Hydrocarbons are infinite and renewable.
"It is obvious that the total amount of petroleum in the rocks underlying the surface ... is large beyond computation." -- Edward Orton, 1888
Let me speak for everyone on this forum with the following:
*pause*
What most people seem to forget about off-shore drilling is that the states can still veto it. It's up to them, IIRC, to issue permits and it's a virtual no-go for the next 50 years in CA. The Legislature won't approve of it and the Gov is against it as well.
FL is a bit trickier. The GOP has a 65% majority in both houses of the legislature, but even they are generally against drilling and have been for quite some time. There's starting to be a trickle of GOP for support of drilling, but they will likely need 90-100% of the GOP part of their congress to get drilling approved which seems doubtful over the next few years.
But just like everything else in American politics, states' rights are neglected, by and large. What a disgrace.
So the real question becomes: when will the GOP cave-in to off-shore drilling? _________________ Riches are not from abundance of worldly goods, but from a contented mind.
Joined: Aug 24, 2005 Posts: 298 Location: Costa Geriatrica, Spain
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: Re: Democrats Cave-In On Offshore Drilling
MonsieurX wrote:
Um, no we aren't. Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe and carbon is the fourth most common element in the universe. Hydrocarbons are infinite and renewable.
Try renewing some then. What you have there Monsieur X is an energy sink, not an energy source. Once you understand the energetics behind your statement you will realize why 3aidlillahi is laughing.
Joined: Oct 11, 2005 Posts: 408 Location: Arizona, USA
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:55 am Post subject: Re: Democrats Cave-In On Offshore Drilling
Even if it were true, it's irrelevant. Assuming you're talking about abiotic oil, the point you're still missing is rates. The issue at the heart of peak oil is production rates. A few drops of oil being produced by whatever method is a ludicrous point to bring up compared to the rate at which oil is being consumed.
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Democrats Cave-In On Offshore Drilling
Quote:
I can assure you, the mantle contains more than "a few drops" of hydrocarbons.
So then you're saying that oil is related to magmatism? If oil is from the mantle and it's well-established that magma is from the mantle, then it can be assumed that oil and magmatism are related, no? _________________ Riches are not from abundance of worldly goods, but from a contented mind.
Joined: Oct 11, 2005 Posts: 408 Location: Arizona, USA
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Democrats Cave-In On Offshore Drilling
MonsieurX wrote:
Windmills wrote:
Even if it were true, it's irrelevant. Assuming you're talking about abiotic oil, the point you're still missing is rates. The issue at the heart of peak oil is production rates.
Production rates are at an all time high. 85.9 mbpd I think was the last number I saw.
Quote:
A few drops of oil being produced by whatever method is a ludicrous point to bring up compared to the rate at which oil is being consumed.
I can assure you, the mantle contains more than "a few drops" of hydrocarbons. Proven reserves on earth are over 1 trillion barrels. Proven reserves on Titan are over 300 trillion barrels.
Of course production rates are at an all time high. That is the very definition of peak oil.
Ultimately, this is once again the mistake of assuming that reserves and production rates are the same thing.
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