I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
Joined: Aug 19, 2004 Posts: 85 Location: Austin (but moving east soon)
Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:27 am Post subject: Choosing Acreage
I'm at a point where a key planning decision must be made, so this is the first place I think to come to.
I have three lots to choose from:
1) 60 acres, with a 10-ft-wide/2-ft-deep stream running through it. About $2000/acre. Shares much of its border with a national forest.
2) 20 acres, no stream. About $3600/acre. Middle-class neighborhood.
3) 10 acres, no stream. About $4000 per acre. Middle-class neighborhood.
Aside from the stream in Option 1, all three options are heavily-wooded with pines and hardwoods (about a 70/30 mix). I've traipsed across all three, and they all look like humans haven't been in them in only-god-knows how many years.
Option 1's stream and its shared border with the park sounds very nice.. but I'd go into much deeper debt for it. I'd have only one neighbor to the south.
Options 2 and 3 are very attractive because they're much cheaper - I could probably pay them off quite a bit sooner - but I'd be getting less for my money, and I don't quite know who my neighbors would be.
We (my family) plan on building my house there, having a nice veggie garden, perhaps a few chickens, etc etc. Pretty run-of-the-mill. No matter what lot we buy, we're only going to actually clear 1 or 2 acres, leaving the surrounding spaces to grow wild.. it'll give us privacy and keep wildlife in the area.
So.. any suggestions on which acreage to grab? I'm torn on this one.
Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Choosing Acreage
Go with the stream, your going to need the water for irrigation. I know the 60 acres will cost more but in the long run, you may need the wood and perhaps you could divide it up later and sell.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13065 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:35 am Post subject: Re: Choosing Acreage
Personally, I would go with choice #1, although I don't approve of going into debt to buy land. Is there a chance they might subdivide? Can you go in with family members and/or friends to share the cost and subdivide the land yourselves?
Live water on land is a huge bonus. It opens up many options for raising food that you wouldn't otherwise have. You might even be able to generate some power with an in-stream turbine.
Really #1 looks pretty darn wonderful. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: Re: Choosing Acreage
Yes, go with the 60 acres w/ stream. I understand your concern for habitat values but log much of the acreage. Stash several years of firewood for yourself, sell firewood, farm between the stumps. Hard work and sad, but gives you an income & chance of survival.
Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Choosing Acreage
I'd say go with #1 - And if you don't please tell me where it is so I can....
-G _________________ I Have and will continue to vote against ANY politician who supports the various bailouts. Curse you for selling out our future for status quo now!
Joined: Sep 04, 2005 Posts: 440 Location: central MA, USA
Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Choosing Acreage
PonyBoy78 wrote:
I'm at a point where a key planning decision must be made, so this is the first place I think to come to.
I have three lots to choose from:
1) 60 acres, with a 10-ft-wide/2-ft-deep stream running through it. About $2000/acre. Shares much of its border with a national forest.
2) 20 acres, no stream. About $3600/acre. Middle-class neighborhood.
3) 10 acres, no stream. About $4000 per acre. Middle-class neighborhood.
My inclination is always to go with more space. OTOH, the cost of option #1 is nearly double that of #2, and is triple that of #3. Quite a difference. I expect property taxes would be higher as well? Or is it taxed at a different rate? How secure do you feel your income is, while you pay off the debt? Any chance your family would be on-board with living in a trailer on the property for a few years, while you figure out what to build?
A stream would be nice. Fishing? Irrigation? How much flood risk is there? How far would the house and gardens be from it? Is there any part of it suitable for a micro hydro-electric system?
Quote:
We (my family) plan on building my house there, having a nice veggie garden, perhaps a few chickens, etc etc. Pretty run-of-the-mill. No matter what lot we buy, we're only going to actually clear 1 or 2 acres, leaving the surrounding spaces to grow wild.. it'll give us privacy and keep wildlife in the area.
I was going to suggest clearing at least two acres. You'll probably want an acre for gardens & fruiting trees/shrubs. The other acre should fit the house, and maybe a barn in the future. If you ever want to keep chickens and/or goats, it'd be nice to have at least an extra acre cleared for them.
Any restrictions on any of these lots for what animals you could keep, BTW?
Quote:
So.. any suggestions on which acreage to grab? I'm torn on this one.
Depending on how much rainfall you get, you may want at least the 20 acres if you intend to harvest firewood sustainably. Here in New England, except on the most marginal of soils, most sources I've read agree that 10 acres can be harvested sustainably as a sole source of winter heat for a single house.
Having neighbors if times get really tough could be a good thing.
Joined: Aug 19, 2004 Posts: 85 Location: Austin (but moving east soon)
Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:33 am Post subject: Re: Choosing Acreage
FoolYap wrote:
My inclination is always to go with more space. OTOH, the cost of option #1 is nearly double that of #2, and is triple that of #3. Quite a difference. I expect property taxes would be higher as well? Or is it taxed at a different rate? How secure do you feel your income is, while you pay off the debt? Any chance your family would be on-board with living in a trailer on the property for a few years, while you figure out what to build?
A stream would be nice. Fishing? Irrigation? How much flood risk is there? How far would the house and gardens be from it? Is there any part of it suitable for a micro hydro-electric system?
I was going to suggest clearing at least two acres. You'll probably want an acre for gardens & fruiting trees/shrubs. The other acre should fit the house, and maybe a barn in the future. If you ever want to keep chickens and/or goats, it'd be nice to have at least an extra acre cleared for them.
Any restrictions on any of these lots for what animals you could keep, BTW?
Depending on how much rainfall you get, you may want at least the 20 acres if you intend to harvest firewood sustainably. Here in New England, except on the most marginal of soils, most sources I've read agree that 10 acres can be harvested sustainably as a sole source of winter heat for a single house.
Having neighbors if times get really tough could be a good thing.
--Steve
Property taxes would be nothing compared to what I pay here in Austin; less than $1000 a year.
My income is pretty secure and allows me to chip-away at debts to the tune of several thousand each month; I work in healthcare and would be one of the last people to be let-go in the event of massive layoffs. (Hopefully the government would give hospitals priority as far as utlities go in the event of a crunch, which could buy me some time as far as income goes.)
My only debt right now comes from student loans and a vehicle that'll be paid-off by the end of the year.. not much at all. Dad's willing to go in on this land with me to some extent. And we already have a nice large RV, waiting to be parked on the land while construction is ongoing.
There's a significant drop in altitude going into the stream bed. On the west side, the land is about 6 feet over the stream, I'd estimate. On the east side (where I'd want my house), the land is on average 10 ft above the stream. According to the real estate agent, this land isn't in a flood plain (none of them are). The area gets, on average, about 65 inches of rain every year.
One final small complication: The stream runs roughly north to south and divides the western third of the land from the eastern two thirds, so a bridge would need to be built in order to access the other two-thirds (where I'd want the house). I've gotten estimates between $4000 and $5000 for that job. It might also be a good site for a small hydro project.
None of the three lots carry animal restrictions.
(Thanks for everyone's comments, BTW!)
Last edited by PonyBoy78 on Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:46 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: Re: Choosing Acreage
#1 based on the given information. Split it in half and sell the other half to friend/family/someone else looking for a good retreat. 30 acres for 60k is the best deal . _________________ "The future power is manpower"
Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Choosing Acreage
Not a lot of information here to make a decision. Without water to work with, whatever land you have would be useless and without value.
For the difference in price, can you install a well and solar PV to run the pump?
10-20 acres, paid off, with renewable energy operating a well, and a close knit community nearby offers some useful dynamics.
I'm a great fan of surface water, mind you, but having a place paid for gives you freedom. A dependable water source gives you agriculture and livestock. Neighbors offer security, a ready market, and a potential labor pool. _________________ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--for ever."
-George Orwell, 1984
Joined: Sep 16, 2004 Posts: 4863 Location: Southwest WI
Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: Re: Choosing Acreage
So you'll be commuting? How far is the commute and what kind of vehicle? Something to factor in. 1# reason i still live right next to the city here. I could only afford land 3 hrs or more away! _________________ Clothing should be optional.
Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Choosing Acreage
I think that initial purchase price is only part of the equation. To have a functional "homeplace" you probably want to think of the following:
Flood or lack of water problems - either is trouble
You will probably want to clear at least 5 acres and maybe closer to 10. Here are some things you might want:
Orchard of fruit and nut trees
Fish pond - good occasional source of protein - what is the water table like?
Some grazing area for a couple of goats or cows if nothing else, maybe even a pig or two.
Garden area - if it is really hard times you will want 2 acres at least
Neighbors - in real hard times I would think functional neighbors would be a tremendous plus. You can all help each other with jobs that require multiple people and trade excess production to each other (the list of benefits is almost endless). It is much easier to squeeze a decent living from the land if you and your neighbors cooperate.
Woodland for wildlife - it takes way more woodland for wildlife than most people imagine if you plan to eat any of it.
Location to nearest town/settlement/store - being too far away can be a real problem.
Not knowing the area you are in, like someone said, what is the potential for wind and water power?
As for firewood, if you plan to cut trees for firewood, unless you live in a warm climate, you will need land.
As a man who owns 250+ acres the 60 acres with good water really sound interesting.
Is it possible you could alter your lifestyle and get that tract paid off fairly quickly? Then you could plant trees, etc as you get the money.
One thing I have noticed over the years on my land where I have a number of planted and naturally occurring edible plants/berries/nuts. It is rare for over about 70% of all of these to do well in one year and it is not out of the ordinary for only ~40% to do well in one year ( I don't irrigate which would alter this drastically). Therefore, if you really want to be ready for hard times you need a large variety of food crops with a good sized plot of each so that those that do produce in a given year can carry you.
Joined: Aug 19, 2004 Posts: 85 Location: Austin (but moving east soon)
Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Choosing Acreage
From what the locals have told me, the water table is down maybe, maybe 50 feet. A solar-powered well should be no problem.
No matter which lot I choose, I'd have the same neighbors. The 60-acre lot is about 1/2 a mile from the other two lots, so they all share the same neighborhood.
The nearest town has about 900 people living there; it's a town with one stop sign, a corner store, and a one-room post office. Most of the people there commute to the nearest "large" city (population: ~55000). My commute would be about 20 miles each way, but only three days a week. My car gets about 30mpg.
Right now, I'm leaning towards Option #1. After a talk with Dad this afternoon, he's willing the help me kill the cost pretty quickly in exchange for a bite of the land, which is quite fine by me. He and Mom will end-up living there with us anyway - he knows what's coming down the pipeline.
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6543 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: Choosing Acreage
Definitely option 1.
I've lived on 25 acres for a long time and it's never seemed quite big enough. For me, anyway.
Spend the extra money. It's a good price, and as the years pass what you pay/paid will become less noticeable to you, but the land will be ever with you.
60 acres gets you real peace and privacy. 20 acres does not. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
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