Joined: Jul 04, 2008 Posts: 181 Location: Europe: European Historian
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:26 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
The Barter system has been and always will be in the USA...it will just grow larger in the years ahead...as people will be forced to know their neighbors, and stay where they are.
Quote:
Are you a historian as it says under your avatar?
I'm a bit surprised in that case you got Weimar so wrong. I hope that was a typo. (As you can read I am getting a bit suspicous... eusa_eh )
Anyway, I am wondering if you can substantiate the above a bit more. How come a government that is causing hyper inflation and monetizes any amount of debt, cannot afford firemen, police etc.
Was there some need for the goverment to seem thrifty although money supply went out of control?
The point I was making on Weirmer was the money supply dried up..to a point that even if their was money "and their was" it was essentially worthless.
Germany at that time, didn't have much of an army, was already in a depression, had problems feeding their people. The police at that time were as loyal as money could buy.
I expect their to be police...but they will be like the Russian police when the USSR feel apart....open to bribes and the highest bidder. Be ready for some very corrupt law enforcement in the days ahead in the west.
If someone steels something from you..and you call the police better pay the police or they wont help you "I know this first hand by living in a eastern European nation that has been in deppression.
The local and state police dept now are cutting back in the USA...and crime is going up. Eventually as everyone here on PO.com knows ..the states and Fed will be bankrupt. Where will they get the revenue to pay for police? Take a look at Detroit....they cut back on police until they revived the city 'with gambling and sports" and Detroit is a basket case and one of the most corrupt cities in the USA>
Cloud 9- I dont think we will see a large scale 1930s work plan 'new deal' again on that scale. Mainly due to dollar stability and lack of energy. back then they were building roads, battlefields" like Gettysburg" ect...and cheap energy helped to role the new deal along, not to mention the dollar was stable and meant something.
This time I dont see "3 times the population of the 30s" doing that...and who is going to lead them...Obama or Hillary...give me a break..FDR against a Hillary Clinton is a joke.
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1126 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:45 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
GeneralGreen wrote:
The point I was making on Weirmer was the money supply dried up..to a point that even if their was money "and their was" it was essentially worthless.
I think the point that he was making was that anyone touting himself as a European historian ought to be familiar with the spelling of "Weimar". _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
T. Boone Pickens will lead us. I agree that the current political landscape is bleak. Neither Obama nor McCain have the overwhelming support of the American people. The general consensus is that the two leading parties are fractured and corrupt. The Democrats have been with us since Jackson and the Republicans have been with us since Lincoln. Both parties are well oiled machines that serve the interests of their respective power brokers. The will of the people is something they pay lip service to when they need votes. The rest of the time, it is business as usual. It is time for a new party.
A charismatic populist may preside over a new centrist party that could lead us out of this mess. This country is rich in natural resources and talent. We had a country before oil and we can have a country after oil.
Areas like Detroit, New Orleans and Miami are entities unto themselves. The solutions to their problems may very well have to be sorted out on a neighborhood level. The Supreme CT just restored the balance of power to the little people with its gun ruling. The notion that the police were proactive in preventing crime was a fantasy perpetrated by the liberal left. Most of the time, the cops show up after the fact. They draw chalk lines around the bodies and take the statements of the witnesses. Granny with a 357 is the best form of crime control there is.
Much of the crime wave you speak of consists of thugs killing thugs. If the north east would adopt liberal carry laws, the castle doctrine and the Texas notion of private property rights, violent crime and property crimes would spiral downward.
There will always be drug dealers, prostitutes, and gamblers. Laws dealing with these social issues are tokens paid to the Christian Right.
Roosevelt took us off the gold standard to stop the gold drain to Europe. The value of the currency since the 1930’s has been based on the faith the holder had in its ability to purchase the goods and services he wanted and needed. That faith may be a bit eroded at the moment but that faith will continue because we have nothing else.
We need wind farms, solar energy, natural gas and nuclear energy to supplement our dwindling oil supplies. Hoover Dam scale projects constructed by millions working for the WPA would go a long way in restoring faith in the system.
Develop a plan move us in that direction and you will restore hope.
Joined: Apr 12, 2007 Posts: 1172 Location: Central NC
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:48 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
Nickel wrote:
GeneralGreen wrote:
The point I was making on Weirmer was the money supply dried up..to a point that even if their was money "and their was" it was essentially worthless.
I think the point that he was making was that anyone touting himself as a European historian ought to be familiar with the spelling of "Weimar".
Oh that is good! _________________ "The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences…"
Sir Winston Churchill
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1126 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:55 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
Cloud9 wrote:
Roosevelt took us off the gold standard to stop the gold drain to Europe.
I don't believe that's correct. The United States raised the value of dollars required to buy an ounce of gold from 20 to 35 at that time (effectively devaluing the US currency held by foreigners by nearly half), but as far as I know, didn't abandon the gold standard outright until August 15, 1971... but it was, as you say, done to head off the depletion of US reserves, particularly to France. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:10 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
"Roosvelt stopped the drain of gold from the treasury by forbidding the export of gold. In April, he followed England's example by taking the United States off the gold standard. At his request, Congress made it illegal for private citizens to hoard gold. People were required to sell to the government at a price fixed by law."
Our Land and Our Time, Joseph R. Conlin, Coronado Publishers, 1987, page 663
Joined: Dec 07, 2005 Posts: 1856 Location: Australia
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
Yes, but as mentioned, loans from foreign states could be demanded to be paid back in Gold. That is what Nixon stopped.
That is what was draining the governments gold reserves, not private export. _________________ Lets take a ride, and run with the dogs tonight
In suburbia
You cant hide, run with the dogs tonight
In suburbia
- Pet Shop Boys
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
Micki wrote:
Yes, but as mentioned, loans from foreign states could be demanded to be paid back in Gold. That is what Nixon stopped.
That is what was draining the governments gold reserves, not private export.
Gov't will confiscate gold. Again.
Will try to take grain. See Stalin Kulaks for details.
“Investor should prepare for more of the same at best”, by Tony Jackson, Financial Times, August 12, 2007.
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1126 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
Cloud9 wrote:
"Roosvelt stopped the drain of gold from the treasury by forbidding the export of gold. In April, he followed England's example by taking the United States off the gold standard. At his request, Congress made it illegal for private citizens to hoard gold. People were required to sell to the government at a price fixed by law."
Our Land and Our Time, Joseph R. Conlin, Coronado Publishers, 1987, page 663
Sorry, but to my mind, Conlin's mistaken, or he's at least misrepresented what happened. In 1933, the US suspended the exchange of gold for paper money, but didn't abandon the fact that a dollar remained backed by a specific quantity of gold actually held in reserve (in other words, the gold standard)... not until 1971, when it became a fiat currency. Prior to the Depression, a US dollar represented roughly 1/20, and then 1/35, of a troy ounce. That only ceased to be true under Nixon. In fact, it was in the time Colin's talking about that the US confiscated non-jewelry gold held by private citizens precisely to shore up the dollar, since privately-held gold threatened the universal acceptability of paper money. People had to turn in their gold for... the equivalent in paper money, of course. Those dollars remained backed by gold... the very gold they'd just surrendered.
It can be seen as a two-step process; first, the ending of the system by which an individual could go up to a wicket with $20 and walk away with an ounce of gold; that happened in the 30s and that's what you're talking about. But the second step didn't occur till the US actually uncoupled the dollar from the value of gold it held in reserve and ceased to exchange that gold for paper even with foreign governments. After that, it was unbacked by anything but good faith (and, since 1973, arguably oil) and the sky's been the limit ever since. But prior to 1971, a US dollar in your hand represented, ostensibly, 1/35 of an ounce of real gold physically held in reserve by the US government. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Last edited by Nickel on Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:20 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:14 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
Nickel wrote:
Cloud9 wrote:
"Roosvelt stopped the drain of gold from the treasury by forbidding the export of gold. In April, he followed England's example by taking the United States off the gold standard. At his request, Congress made it illegal for private citizens to hoard gold. People were required to sell to the government at a price fixed by law."
Our Land and Our Time, Joseph R. Conlin, Coronado Publishers, 1987, page 663
Sorry, but I think Conlin's mistaken. The US suspended the exchange of gold for paper money, but didn't abandon the fact that a dollar remained backed by a specific quantity of gold actually held in reserve (in other words, the gold standard)... not until 1971, when it became a fiat currency. From 1900 (I believe) until then, a US dollar represented roughly 1/20, and then 1/35, of a troy ounce. That only ceased to be true under Nixon. In fact, it was at that time that the US confiscated gold held by private citizens precisely to shore up the dollar, since privately-held gold threatened the universal acceptability of paper money. People had to turn in their gold for... the equivalent in paper money, of course. Those dollars remained backed by gold... the very gold they'd just surrendered.
The war between private and US money has been going on since
Burr v Hamilton.
The POTUS' dying of gun shots-Jackson would 've been one but the pistols misfired at point blank range,-were against private (FedRes)
money.
Every attempt at every watershed has been made to dilute
precious metal v. fractional reserve paper.
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
Nickel, I do not hold my self out as an expert. In as much as I was not present at the time, I am only as good as my secondary sources. Our Land and Our Time is a standard American History text used in Florida schools.
Conlin’s quote: “In April, he followed England's example by taking the United States off the gold standard.” was my source. Since Conlin has written more on the subject of American History than I have, when he said Roosevelt took us off the gold standard, I took his word for it.
Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Why America will break apart-What Cheap energy has done.
GeneralGreen wrote:
I think all too often the Great lake states(MN, WI, OH, IL, IN, MI) are grouped with places like Kansas or Missouri which are historically, culturally, and economically different. I wouldn't be surprised if the Great Lakes broke off and took advantage of both rich resources, clean water, and vast avaliability of non-auto related transportation.
I agree with you on with Kansas and Missouri being different from the great lake states, i am from western MO now live in eastern kansas and honestly i do not relate to those states but feel more akin to Iowa, Nebraska, Arkansas and Oklahoma. Just my 2 cents.
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