[Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)

ORCA

I agree about 'Stopping power". Its like the legend of Big Foot. Some swear its out there somewhere but no one can show a single hair.

I also dislike lugging around a full-size handgun while attempting to keep it concealed, or even one of it's stubby brothers that's been lopped off and inch. Not much better. I don't think I'll be engaging in a running gunfight. If I have the need to put 15 rounds down range something is seriously wrong with my shooting ability!

I'm certainly not a physicist. I've never done the math regarding ballistics and co-effecients. I have, however, attended a multitude of actual shootings out on the street. I can't recall a single one, regardless of calibur, that didn't take the steam right out of the "shootee". That's all the proof I need.

As far as the P3AT goes, I don't feel under armed considering the situations I'm most likely to encounter on a daily basis. Mostly it will be some stupid ass street punk attempting to jack me up for my wallet...or maybe my car.

The P3AT is not a "cheap" gun in that it isn't junk. It is a product of high-tech manufacturing that does not produce a weapon using materials you personally may associate with quality firearms. Besides, this is a simple, feather-light, easily concealed weapon for those times looking like Matt Dillion isn't conveniant.

I like mine...a lot.
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Cloud9 · Light Sweet Crude Joined: Jul 26, 2006 Posts: 1176

Air Soft is a plastic gun that shoots a plastic 6 mm BB. It is something that you can shoot within the confines of your office without prompting a 911 call. Snap shooting is done without sights. It takes a few thousand rounds before the hand and the brain connect up to the point where you can hit what you are looking at.

The gun as sold by Walmart comes with a sticky target that captures the BB so it doesn't go flying around the office and tick off the cleaning lady.

A simple toy that improves eye hand coordination.

http://images.buzzillions.com/images_products/04/86/colt_delta_elite_spring_powered_airsoft_reviews_782413_300.jpg

Muckingfess

I too, am for open carry. However, we aren't there yet. In some states concealed carry means just that. No "print" of a weapon.

As far as the "top 3" mfgrs, look at Ruger's LCP. it is the P3AT. I don't know if Kel-tek makes it for them, but I've heard that they do. I was looking at the Ruger when a friend suggested the Kel-tek. As I respect his opinion (he has 20+ years in LE, the last 5 in SWAT), I looked at both. I had the opportunity to shoot both. Identical results. I chose the Kel-tek for the parkerized finish, not available on the Ruger. JMHO, YMMV.

Ruger LCP
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ALBY

LMFDO at the stopping power rant.

There is no scientific study on humans. Even if there were, there is such a wide variety of humans out there that the data would be meaningless.

So I reckon...

Having any gun is a good thing.

having a gun that WORKS all the time is a plus. same goes for being able to handle and hit with said gun.

and

Having a gun with a caliber that starts with .4 is a better thing.

AgentR

Heaviest caliber that you can shoot well. For me, 9mm fits bill; lots can shoot 45s with no problems.
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And so shall we remain; Until the end.

jato

Psychological stop: Totally unpredictable.

Physical stop:
1. Central nervous system destruction.
2. Blood loss resulting in brain/oxygen starvation.

To a lesser degree pelvic bone destruction can negate the skeletal support structure and take a person down to the ground. Just remember a person can still fight while on the ground.

My 2 cents carry a handgun round which can penetrate common barriers and still penetrate deep into human tissue. The bullet may be required to travel through an arm or other barrier THEN into the chest cavity from oblique angles. Usually the “heavy/slow” category penetrate the deepest for a given pistol caliber.

My personal favorites are:
9x19mm 147 grain HP
.40 SW 180 grain HP
.45 ACP 230 grain HP

.38 special 158 grain LSWCHP (these do not speed load well IMO)
.357 magnum 158 grain HP

I don’t think the .380 and smaller cartridges are up for the self-defense task, but it is far better than nothing.

Most firearm disciplines I know teach aiming for center available mass since it is the largest target (easiest to hit). Other more specific target areas may include the brain, heart, spine and pelvic girdle.

IMO the best website for “stopping power” education is:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm
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Karlos4 · Tar Sands Joined: May 22, 2008 Posts: 28

Impressive posts. I live in a country, Spain, where firearms are absolutely forbidden for civilians. But I've come to think that I'll need some protection for my family in a SHTF scenario.
I got some good knifes. Want to get a bow, but even for that here you need a license. I'm joining an archery club in september, and I'll learn how to use it. Better than nothing.
In a very dire scenario, I guess people would get guns anyhow. My best chances are to get small calibre weapons: a 22 revolver and, maybe, a 22 rifle. The more common gun here are hunting shotguns, two-barreled, cal. 12. It must not be so difficult to get one in the black market, a weapon with real stopping power.
In recent years, we have a lot of gangs from eastern countries. People with combat experience, most of them from Kosovo, armed with Makarov pistols and AK-47 rifles. Guess ordinary spaniards are going to have a hard time if security forces are not up to the task.

Cloud9 · Light Sweet Crude Joined: Jul 26, 2006 Posts: 1176

There is hope. The gun abolition trend in the U.S. reversed after seventy years. Common sense editorials asserting a right to self defense will sow the seeds in the public mind. It takes time. It starts with a letter to the editor.

SoylentGreen · Heavy Crude Joined: May 25, 2008 Posts: 168

Miltary cartridges and cartridges most popular and common are the way to go.
30-06
270 win
243 win
7mm rem mag ...4 most rifle popular cartridges by US sales in order

7.62X 39 russian AK 47 round
308 win aka 7.62 NATO 30 cal round
12 ga shotgun
9mm luger aka parabelum aka 9x19mm
45 acp aka auto
38 spec. can be shot in 357 mag but not visa versa
22LR rimfire
223 rem aka 5.56 NATO standard M-16/AR-15 round

stay away from the latest NEW chamberings, there are a bunch of them.stick with the time proven chamberings with the most ammo available.

Carlo · Coal Joined: Nov 21, 2004 Posts: 12

Muckingfess

SoylentGreen · Heavy Crude Joined: May 25, 2008 Posts: 168

there are lotsof great guns out there. Ruger revolvers are like Glock handguns, nearly indistructable. Ruger revolver actions are truly modern,super simple.Drop one in the sand. They can be field strip with the rim of a spent revolver casing and the action unit washed in a stream and reassempled. Try that with a Smith and Wesson. Colt, S& W and Taurus actions are more complicated, fragile and are basically unchanged for a century. Browning Hi-power aka p-35. Walther,Beretta, Zastava, Tangfolio,many,many 1911 clones.
I would be more concerned with obtaining the most common chamberings.
I'll take a lesser brand in 9mm than a Sig chambered in 357 Sig for example.

slesh · Tar Sands Joined: Jul 20, 2008 Posts: 43

Its not a matter of the name of the weapon, its the weapons intended ability.
1911 gov't issue Colt 45 auto
Hollow tips.

Stopping power with one round and is deadly accurate out to 25 yards, just point and shoot.

Has been my side arm since 1989.
I'll swear by it. Smooth action, never jams and halfhammer safety free.

As for rifle/shotgun
Remington 870 express 12 guage
Any 30-06. With medium to long range scope.
I would also throw in a blackpowder model.

Cashmere · Light Sweet Crude Joined: Mar 27, 2008 Posts: 1971

Definitely agree that common rounds make sense.

I do own and carry a pistol with an odd chambering - - -

I have the ammo stocked. In 10 years it may be worthless without ammo, so it's a bit of a luxury. I got it because it suited my need for concealment, firepower, and size/weight. Nothing else had the stats I wanted, so I went with it. Of course I have another in a common chambering just in case . . .
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joelcolorado · Intermediate Crude Joined: May 25, 2008 Posts: 683

You know, a .22 long rifle hollow point will stop a human cold. And you could have 50 blocks of bullets so cheap with 500 bullets each.

I have a 357 S&W too. Shot lots of animals with .22 tho and ppl not near as tough. Shot a wounded deer one time to put it down and it dropped like a rock. Shot placement of course is everything.

Just a thot as to ammo and availability