Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:10 am Post subject: Re: GM cancels healthcare
emeraldg40 wrote:
64 too much for wifes health? But you wont say a word when the plumber hands you a bill? Or your when your mechanic helps you from keeping your hands greasy? The nurse that you paid for was not the tech that asked her if she needed anything. The nurse was the one who made damn sure your wife was well and safe. Not to mention the other nurses that made damn sure your baby was safe......and when I say safe, I mean from the moment the tired(sometimes), young, (sometimes) physician wrote a stupid order that 10 people could not read much less interpret and made damn sure the right med was given at the right time in the right amount........I could go on but I will spare the others.......64 is squat for the education and sacrifice for being a nurse. Done.
I said the hospital charged us $64 for the nurse (not a "tech") to stick her head in the door, not for any real service she provided. We also paid $805 a day for the room. Plus $272 for my wife to lie in another room for an hour (recovery). Plus extremely inflated prices for single tablets of pain killers. $8.50 for a single morphine tablet! Give me a break. I could go on and on. I would love for nurses to get paid what they are worth, but gouging people for minimal service is theft, plain and simple. You might be right that the $64 is keeping the nurse on "standby" lest something horrible happen to my wife and/or daughter, but I believe those costs are factored into the boarding fee. The $64 was for a specific service supposedly provided by the hospital and its staff. That service was imaginary. Period. I was there; you were not. _________________ Whoso would be a man must be a non-conformist.
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: Re: GM cancels healthcare
Hospitals are VERY expensive things to run. A small part of it is profiteering by for profit hospitals and by pseudo non-profits. Most of it though, is technology and infrastructure. CAT scanners, high tech operating suites, cardiac monitors, these things are all really expensive, and if you want that service it's going to cost you a lot of money. Nurses don't make great money, but they go to a lot of schooling and they get paid for it. These are not the days when a "nurse" was some 18 year old girl that walked in off the street and put on a funny hat. They mostly have four year degrees. It's tough training. Microbiology, anatomy, physiology. I mean Christ, a CPA spends the same length of time in school that a nurse does. My CPA charges $150 per hour.
If you want to find a cheaper paradigm for health, and I think we desperately need to do that, then you need to think about what are your expectations from the medical system. What do those expectations cost and are those expectations realistic. The truth is that most of the expensive high tech stuff in a hospital doesn't really affect your longevity or quality of life that much. If we want affordable healthcare, we need to start thinking about what is the minimum set of health services that really provide good benefit for the cost and then we need to accept that those other things aren't cost effective and need to be set aside. _________________ "We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: Re: GM cancels healthcare
anthem wrote:
emeraldg40 wrote:
64 too much for wifes health? But you wont say a word when the plumber hands you a bill? Or your when your mechanic helps you from keeping your hands greasy? The nurse that you paid for was not the tech that asked her if she needed anything. The nurse was the one who made damn sure your wife was well and safe. Not to mention the other nurses that made damn sure your baby was safe......and when I say safe, I mean from the moment the tired(sometimes), young, (sometimes) physician wrote a stupid order that 10 people could not read much less interpret and made damn sure the right med was given at the right time in the right amount........I could go on but I will spare the others.......64 is squat for the education and sacrifice for being a nurse. Done.
I said the hospital charged us $64 for the nurse (not a "tech") to stick her head in the door, not for any real service she provided. We also paid $805 a day for the room. Plus $272 for my wife to lie in another room for an hour (recovery). Plus extremely inflated prices for single tablets of pain killers. $8.50 for a single morphine tablet! Give me a break. I could go on and on. I would love for nurses to get paid what they are worth, but gouging people for minimal service is theft, plain and simple. You might be right that the $64 is keeping the nurse on "standby" lest something horrible happen to my wife and/or daughter, but I believe those costs are factored into the boarding fee. The $64 was for a specific service supposedly provided by the hospital and its staff. That service was imaginary. Period. I was there; you were not.
I understand. Did you protest the bill? I would. I would get prices for another hospital for comparison. The 64 they chose to charge is a very abitrary number btw. The reality is this.....Nurses are held responsible in a court of law for the care you receive. Now, how much is that worth? Theres not anywhere else in my life that Im responsible to another human, but if I were to duck my head in the door, throw the dice and gamble that your ok, Im held to that decision in a court of law. I personally would not do that btw. The charge although not clearly defined is for nursing care.....RNs and LVNs and patient care techs. 8.50 for pain relief....some people spend that for a latte. You see it is perception....I perceive that 4 bucks is alot for a gallon of gas.....but I pay it if I need it. I hear midwifes are the way to go now adays.....
Joined: Jan 25, 2006 Posts: 82 Location: Western Maine, USA
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: Re: GM cancels healthcare
eastbay wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
I understand what you mean. I just don't think these people should be left with no healthcare to cover them.
Most will be older, and therefore difficult to endure in healthcare insurance companies. The state doesn't provide.
Well, actually in the USA we do provide medicare and medicaid for those of retirement age. So most of them should be ok. It'll just cost them a bit more, that's all.
Not the end of the world. Peak oil is the end of the world.
No, ALL of them will be OK. GM only ended this benefit for those 65 and over. In the US, Medicare guarantees health care to all legal residents over 65, with no exceptions. Those too poor to afford the very modest premiums and co-pay of Medicare are eligible for Medicaid, which is essentially free.
Listening to some of these retirees act like they are going to have trouble feeding themselves is galling. The folks affected by this had some of the best compensation packages in the history of civilization. Now they are losing a few of their outrageously generous benefits, when they are no long producing anything of value for their employer, and they whine like entitled union members. I thought these were salaried employees. What these whining retirees don’t seem to realize is just how big their benefit cuts will be if GM ever restructures under Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. It’s amazing that they blame the problem entirely on GM management. While there is plenty of blame to go around, I believe bulk of the blame lies with US politicians who have allowed unrestricted, sometimes predatory access to US markets, while doing nothing to require reciprocal unfettered access to our trading “Partners” markets.
I'm generally very conservative economically, but it's obvious the US needs a Canadian style single payer universal health care system. The simplest approach would be to extend Medicare and Medicaid to all Americans.
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:53 am Post subject: Re: GM cancels healthcare
smallpoxgirl wrote:
If you want to find a cheaper paradigm for health, and I think we desperately need to do that, then you need to think about what are your expectations from the medical system. What do those expectations cost and are those expectations realistic. The truth is that most of the expensive high tech stuff in a hospital doesn't really affect your longevity or quality of life that much. If we want affordable healthcare, we need to start thinking about what is the minimum set of health services that really provide good benefit for the cost and then we need to accept that those other things aren't cost effective and need to be set aside.
I couldn't agree more. If we focussed on providing basic services to everyone, and left the really high-tech services to regional "super" hospitals, I suspect there would be plenty of money left over to transport patients needing those special services to the appropriate facility. Honestly, this is the way it was done in the past, and still is in a sense. However, as we got "greedier", just as with everything else, we expected the maximum amount of service at every hospital, and hospitals provided it and passed the costs on. Getting docs and nurses skilled enough to provide all those services is also expensive. _________________ Whoso would be a man must be a non-conformist.
I understand what you mean. I just don't think these people should be left with no healthcare to cover them.
Most will be older, and therefore difficult to endure in healthcare insurance companies. The state doesn't provide.
Well, actually in the USA we do provide medicare and medicaid for those of retirement age. So most of them should be ok. It'll just cost them a bit more, that's all.
Not the end of the world. Peak oil is the end of the world.
No, ALL of them will be OK. GM only ended this benefit for those 65 and over. In the US, Medicare guarantees health care to all legal residents over 65, with no exceptions. Those too poor to afford the very modest premiums and co-pay of Medicare are eligible for Medicaid, which is essentially free.
Listening to some of these retirees act like they are going to have trouble feeding themselves is galling. The folks affected by this had some of the best compensation packages in the history of civilization. Now they are losing a few of their outrageously generous benefits, when they are no long producing anything of value for their employer, and they whine like entitled union members. I thought these were salaried employees. What these whining retirees don’t seem to realize is just how big their benefit cuts will be if GM ever restructures under Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. It’s amazing that they blame the problem entirely on GM management. While there is plenty of blame to go around, I believe bulk of the blame lies with US politicians who have allowed unrestricted, sometimes predatory access to US markets, while doing nothing to require reciprocal unfettered access to our trading “Partners” markets.
I'm generally very conservative economically, but it's obvious the US needs a Canadian style single payer universal health care system. The simplest approach would be to extend Medicare and Medicaid to all Americans.
WTF. I wish ppl would quit spewing half truths. I mean, it sounded like "all" pensioners lost healthcare coverage. PPL, quit spreading untrue rumors. Age 65 = Medicare!
Joined: May 19, 2005 Posts: 813 Location: Merry Ol' USA
Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:26 am Post subject: Re: GM cancels healthcare
It's quite a dichotomy, really. On the one hand you've got a picture of people who just bought a brand new, 2008 Chevy HHR, complaining about losing health care benefits that they're receiving $300/month to make up for, which enables them to pay for Medicare & prescription plan. On the other hand, GM agreed to their benefits as a condition of employment. Further, sloughing off their retiree benefits onto Medicare only makes the rest of us further insolvent, since Medicare doesn't pay for itself but exists only through taxpayer subsidation. And yet, if GM doesn't slide off the benefits, they likely go under, which means reduced/eliminated benefits for everyone.
As a taxpayer it bothers me because I've now absorbed some of GM's responsibility, which wouldn't be so bad except for the fact that CEO's/stockholders/etc should be getting shafted before we get shafted. I can accept the situation if they'd exhausted their other possibilities first, which I don't believe they have.
BTW, I agree with the dude from Maine above regarding political responsibility for endorsing trade policies which have decimated the domestic marketplace. _________________ After fueling up their cars, Twyman says they bowed their heads and asked God for cheaper gas.There was no immediate answer, but he says other motorists joined in and the service station owner didn't run them off.
So how are all thousands of retirees going to take care of themselves?
Is Medicare enough? I f I were promised healthcare till I die and all of a sudden, they cancel what they promised, maann I would be soo pissed of.
I feel sorry for these old folks.
Medicare plan A & B is about $90 Month. A good plan D drug program will cost about $200 more a Month. So, for $300 a Month your covered.
Except, of course, for the many 1000's of things not covered. Donut hole, anyone? That's another $200/month right there...
Another step of the elderly and infirm simply being placed on ice floes when they are not able to be "financially productive" anymore.
Like the three not-homeless elderly a day who scavenge the trash can here at my place, the "Wealthiest country on earth" has so much to be proud of! "We're Number One!"
So how are all thousands of retirees going to take care of themselves?
Is Medicare enough? I f I were promised healthcare till I die and all of a sudden, they cancel what they promised, maann I would be soo pissed of.
I feel sorry for these old folks.
Medicare plan A & B is about $90 Month. A good plan D drug program will cost about $200 more a Month. So, for $300 a Month your covered.
Except, of course, for the many 1000's of things not covered. Donut hole, anyone? That's another $200/month right there...
Another step of the elderly and infirm simply being placed on ice floes when they are not able to be "financially productive" anymore.
Like the three not-homeless elderly a day who scavenge the trash can here at my place, the "Wealthiest country on earth" has so much to be proud of! "We're Number One!"
Someone correct me if Im wrong here ok? Didnt the current prez authorize some scheme a few years back that if you bought a big gas guzzling GMC or (insert brand) truck for your small business, then you could write it off your taxes in the same year? Something like that right? So GM (Detroit) ramps up, makes all these trucks suv's etc right? So did GM and their workers not see how crazy an idea that was? I dont give a hoot about GM workers, they should have seen the craziness and socked away their loot for a rainy day. As for retiree health, Medicare is a joke and I do feel sorry for ALL of us.
Ask them about what? They know medicare is a joke. Im sure most knew GM was going down hill as well, how could they not know? I do know about Medicare, healthcare and I do feel sorry for all of us that have paid in for years and now have nothing to show for it. How old is the WASP at the top of GM? How can anyone not see it coming? GM falls cause no one bought a truck right pfft
WOW it seems that whenever the topic of health care is mentioned it sure hits a "sensitive nerve"!
*pulls out a big stick and gets ready to whack the hornet's nest*
There's no shortage of people on this forum who are quick to judge SUV owner's as selfish for believing they are entitled to such extravagance.
Maybe we should look at ourselves first before throwing stones?
Where is it written that says health insurance is a God given right?
Health insurance as we know it today (much like SUV's and lots of other things) are nothing more than a "privilege" only made possible by cheap energy.
Why ridicule others for believing they are entitled to something only made possible by a non-renewable resource when we do the same?
hmm?
//
Yes I know this is where people will say, "but cube, health insurance is not something trivial like driving a big car ---> we're talking about people's health here!"
Again this goes back to what SPG and I was trying to hint earlier.
Maybe people need to stop thinking they deserve to live to 80 years old and the rest of society is obligated to pay whatever costs imaginable to make it happen.
I can see a reason for preventive care and cheap low budget operations, but I do not think humanity's most expensive and advanced technologies should be thrown at some geriatric so they can live an extra 7 years......which is basically how American health care works.
That type of thinking is going to go out the window real quick....if it's not happening right now already.
I just wish that GM was more like Toyota. That is all. They are not cutting health care. They pay very well and we Americans are buying them as fast as they come off the line. GM could have done the same. That is the point here. If they had we would not be having a post called GM CANCELS HEALTHCARE peace
I do not think humanity's most expensive and advanced technologies should be thrown at some geriatric so they can live an extra 7 years......which is basically how American health care works.
Forget 7 years. A lot of times we are talking 7 months....or even 7 days. We are working from the paradigm that everyone deserves the best that is available and we should work hard every year to discover new technologies to make available. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to figure out where that leads. Eventually it takes over the entire society. There's no education. No arts. The whole society ends up spending it's entire output trying to keep alive an Alzheimer's patient who thinks he's back in WWI fighting the Kaiser. It's just crazy. Healthcare is important, but it's not the only important thing. We really need to take a serious look at what percentage of our societal effort we can afford to devote to healthcare and what healthcare can and can't do for us within those limits to provide the best benefit for the most people. _________________ "We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
I just wish that GM was more like Toyota. That is all. They are not cutting health care. They pay very well and we Americans are buying them as fast as they come off the line. GM could have done the same. That is the point here. If they had we would not be having a post called GM CANCELS HEALTHCARE peace
If you believe in peak oil (which I'm quite sure many people on this website do!)
doesn't that also mean you believe car companies will go out of business?
So why is this a surprise to anybody?
Everybody here should of saw this coming years ago.
The only thing that "surprises" me is that GM is still alive.
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