Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:07 am Post subject: Any middle grounders here?
By that I mean, anyone who believes that the era of cheap oil is over, and that life will probably get steadily tougher for the majority of people, but doesn't think that we'll be resorting to cannibalism to survive within a decade, but that could be a potential scenario in the future if the right action isn't taken now.
Joined: Aug 26, 2005 Posts: 447 Location: Windy City No Longer
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:20 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here?
Click on the link to "Usergroups" at the top of the page.
Select the group "Moderate".
View list of other Moderates.
Yes, there are a few of us. There are more doomers listed, but not everyone has chosen to subscribe to one of the groups. They're not used too much, but allow threads to be restricted to one type or another so that we have less shouting matches. _________________ TANSTAAFL
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13179 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here?
Interfector wrote:
By that I mean, anyone who believes that the era of cheap oil is over, and that life will probably get steadily tougher for the majority of people, but doesn't think that we'll be resorting to cannibalism to survive within a decade, but that could be a potential scenario in the future if the right action isn't taken now.
I think times will get very tough but that folks in the developed world and most of the rest of the world will probably not resort to cannibalism. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Joined: Sep 29, 2004 Posts: 2330 Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here?
Well, as usual, it all depends on us as a nation. The problem that we see is that the average person holds onto the false belief that there is plenty of oil and the problem is oil company greed. No matter how much you might try to reason with such people, they will cling to denial. Denial in the face of earth shattering problems generally brings on collapse, hence the doomerish slant on things here.
Everyone could wake up tomorrow, take to the streets and demand that their government face the fact of peak oil and demand real solutions. If we were to completely rebuild our transportation systems and invest into renewable electric generation in a vast scale, things would still be tough for perhaps two decades. In fact, the vast amount of money and energy devoted to such projects would warp the economy and most definitely reduce the standard of living for a while. After that, the fruits of our labors would be realized and we would be sitting pretty, energy independent and prosperous. Most people alive today have never lived through such commitment and sacrifice for something of such value. They are used to the gravy train and it looks to most of us that these people will cling to their illusions until the day they die. In fact, history shows that outcome to be quite common when such a situation exists.
Peak oil is a liquid fuels crisis. Over 70% of all oil we consume is burned up in internal combustion engines. Thus, peak oil is a transportation problem. If we can solve that, we will have plenty of oil for the other, more sane uses of the resource.
My personal theory is that rebuilding the electric grid to being 100% renewable will allow electricity to take the place of oil as an economic feedstock. Renewables don't require any fuel once designed, built and brought online. Our growth economy needs a feedstock. Oil was that feedstock, before that, coal. Our currency is based on oil as a result. We need to base our economy and currency on something that doesn't run out. _________________ "That's the problem with mercy, kid... It just ain't professional" - Fast Eddie, The Color of Money
Joined: Jul 02, 2008 Posts: 591 Location: Canterbury, UK
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:47 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here?
Ludi wrote:
I think times will get very tough but that folks in the developed world and most of the rest of the world will probably not resort to cannibalism.
I can live with the idea of massive difficulties and even a dieoff, mostly caused by a decline on the standard of living, but also by wars. I can't bring myself to the idea of cannibalism, it's not acceptable for me. It's not an exercise of "OK, but imagine that...". Whatever. That's why I am concerned, I won't listen to silly excuses and I won't have anything but real, sustainable solutions.
I agree entirely with Kingcoal's post. It was on the Hirsch report, it is in Limits to Growth. It can work, if helped by a steady, controlled population decrease. I am pushing hard to believe and to achieve solutions. Solutions need people to involve. We all need to become part of the solution as we are part of the problem right now.
Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 3904 Location: over here
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:54 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here?
Ludi wrote:
I think times will get very tough but that folks in the developed world and most of the rest of the world will probably not resort to cannibalism.
x2
But while being a moderate here, I'm a doomer by any "normal" civilian's standard. I do however, believe there are plenty of feedback mechanisms in the economy and in human society as a whole to allow us to survive without a significant die-off. But as a good moderate, I also acknowledge that I'm not totally sure of how things will unfold, something that doomers, more often than not don't; they claim to know the future in great detail without "if's" etc.
I do have my grumpy doomer days though, in which I wish the whole world and human kind would just blow up, perish and starve to death. _________________ "The best thing about the future is that it comes only one day at a time."
Joined: Jul 16, 2008 Posts: 12 Location: At the precipice
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here?
I subscribe that we should hope for the best but prepare for the worst. I certainly hope the coming hard times will not be such that one must resort to cannibalism. However, in line with being prepared, I’m curious, has anyone yet published a “Doomer’s Cookbook”?
Joined: Aug 26, 2005 Posts: 447 Location: Windy City No Longer
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here?
mrsea wrote:
I subscribe that we should hope for the best but prepare for the worst. I certainly hope the coming hard times will not be such that one must resort to cannibalism. However, in line with being prepared, I’m curious, has anyone yet published a “Doomer’s Cookbook”?
To Serve Man! It's a Cookbook! (Sorry. Had to get that out.)
There is a "Post Petroleum Survival Guide and Cookbook", but while it has some good recipes, I don't know if that would count. It's a great overview of some of the issues and preps in general, but as a cookbook it needs more...cooking focus. Most of the recipes are in the sidebars. _________________ TANSTAAFL
Joined: Oct 06, 2006 Posts: 1371 Location: East Texas
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here?
Lots of room in your comments for all kinds of folks to fit... in one sense I am a moderate; I don't think life in ten years time will be incredibly different for your average American(US/Canada) or European.
On the other hand; longer term, I think things are going to be *far* worse than most here dare to consider. _________________ Yes, we are. As we are.
And so shall we remain; Until the end.
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here?
C.S.Lewis wrote:
MAN. This elegant little biped has long been valued as a delicacy. It forms a traditional part of the Autumn Feast, and is served between the fish and the joint. Each Man-
This was from a cookbook of the Giants of Harfang. However, the story continues:
Quote:
but she could not bear to read any more.
So we must go and visit the giants ourselves to find how to properly cook Man.
[All quotes taken from "The Silver Chair"] _________________ We should teach our children the 4-Rs: Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Rejoice.
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here?
I have become a complete doomer in the last year, having been somewhat of a moderate the previous three.
One could argue that the USA will fair reasonably well post peak:
--we still pump 6 mbpd,
--our neighbors have excess petroleum and are exporters,
--much of our consumption of oil is gratuitous,
--and we have the military to steal the rest.
Furthermore we have
--temperature climate and water all year.
--400 million acres arable land & <320 million people. Plenty food.
--great forests, coal reserves. Low grade energy.
--efficient infrastructure, police force, rail transport system, etc.
However, and this is the big one. The rest of the world is in miserable shape to weather the storm.
--110 million Mexicans looking for a new home
--50 million central americans looking for a new home
--1.2 billion Chinese desperately needing petroleum
--1. billion Indian desperately needing petroleum
--etc. etc. etc.
We are not an island. Many of our precious resources are located on those other continents. We can not police the world.
We have overpopulated suburban sprawls that are completely and utterly dependent on copious amounts of petroleum for food, energy, work, utilities, services, food, nutrients, water, etc. etc. I believe that suburbia is a trap that can not be fixed and will bring this country down. _________________ ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap
Joined: Aug 30, 2005 Posts: 277 Location: Second Vermont Republic
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:45 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here?
I'm a moderate, leaning towards optimist. Civilization will eventually collapse, that's a given, but I think we've got better than even odds of making it to the end of the century with less disruption than we faced in the last century.
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ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap 
