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CarlosFerreira
Heavy Crude
Joined: Jul 02, 2008
Posts: 362
Location: Espinho, Porto, Portugal
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 Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:37 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here? |
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For a peakoiler that discovered the problem a few months ago, like me, a forum is a very important way to establish and identity. This place is very important to provide that identity. I've been learning a lot, and I feel more confident now. In a nutshell: there's fat to be trimmed, there's technology that can help. It will be very, very tough, and people and society will have to choose between change or collapse (enter Jarod Diamond here). But, essentially, and long as the guns are mostly quiet, we'll manage somewhat, with pain.
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Give anyone a lever long enough and they can change the world. It's unreliable levers that are the problem.
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graham
Tar Sands
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
Posts: 48
Location: Wales U.K.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:03 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here? |
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Ultimately I reserve jugment as its impossible to predict the future. However, much of it depends on what type of resouce wars are faught- hopefully Iraq has halted such exploits for the forseable future. The western world has the potential to get through it, after 20 years of depression, though Chindias growth cannot concievably continue. I don't accept Matt Savinar's opinions though.
Last edited by graham on Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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graham
Tar Sands
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
Posts: 48
Location: Wales U.K.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:07 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here? |
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| CherBear1983 wrote: | | jtmorgan61 wrote: |
It seems likely that the meat industry is going to be significantly downsized in the first world. |
I really hope you're right. It's such a misuse of land. |
possibly we'll start growing it in vats- people will probably be wary of it though despite the junk they already eat. |
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davep
Expert
Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Posts: 1205
Location: Burgundy, France
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here? |
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| graham wrote: | | CherBear1983 wrote: | | jtmorgan61 wrote: |
It seems likely that the meat industry is going to be significantly downsized in the first world. |
I really hope you're right. It's such a misuse of land. |
possibly we'll start growing it in vats- people will probably be wary of it though despite the junk they already eat. |
What's wrong with using soil?
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All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become. - Buddha |
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graham
Tar Sands
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
Posts: 48
Location: Wales U.K.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here? |
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| davep wrote: | | graham wrote: | | CherBear1983 wrote: | | jtmorgan61 wrote: |
It seems likely that the meat industry is going to be significantly downsized in the first world. |
I really hope you're right. It's such a misuse of land. |
possibly we'll start growing it in vats- people will probably be wary of it though despite the junk they already eat. |
What's wrong with using soil? |
Meat production is highly energy intensive.........? Surely lab grown meat will be be far more efficient. |
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davep
Expert
Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Posts: 1205
Location: Burgundy, France
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:17 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here? |
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| graham wrote: | | davep wrote: | | graham wrote: | | CherBear1983 wrote: | | jtmorgan61 wrote: |
It seems likely that the meat industry is going to be significantly downsized in the first world. |
I really hope you're right. It's such a misuse of land. |
possibly we'll start growing it in vats- people will probably be wary of it though despite the junk they already eat. |
What's wrong with using soil? |
Meat production is highly energy intensive.........? Surely lab grown meat will be be far more efficient. |
Sorry, I thought you were referring to plants.
I think we already have very efficient conversion processes for mushrooms and certain fish.
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All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become. - Buddha |
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graham
Tar Sands
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
Posts: 48
Location: Wales U.K.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:27 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here? |
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| davep wrote: | | graham wrote: | | davep wrote: | | graham wrote: | | CherBear1983 wrote: | | jtmorgan61 wrote: |
It seems likely that the meat industry is going to be significantly downsized in the first world. |
I really hope you're right. It's such a misuse of land. |
possibly we'll start growing it in vats- people will probably be wary of it though despite the junk they already eat. |
What's wrong with using soil? |
Meat production is highly energy intensive.........? Surely lab grown meat will be be far more efficient. |
Sorry, I thought you were referring to plants.
I think we already have very efficient conversion processes for mushrooms and certain fish. |
Not enough fish to go around though- got to get our protein from somewhere. |
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davep
Expert
Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Posts: 1205
Location: Burgundy, France
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:30 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here? |
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| graham wrote: | | Not enough fish to go around though- got to get our protein from somewhere. |
I was referring to an on-farm process of using CO2 (from ethanol production, for example) to aid in algae growth which is then fed to fish in ponds. It's extremely efficient. The distillers grains can also be used for mushroom cultivation. The latter is almost 1:1 efficient.
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All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become. - Buddha |
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graham
Tar Sands
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
Posts: 48
Location: Wales U.K.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here? |
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| davep wrote: | | graham wrote: | | Not enough fish to go around though- got to get our protein from somewhere. |
I was referring to an on-farm process of using CO2 (from ethanol production, for example) to aid in algae growth which is then fed to fish in ponds. It's extremely efficient. The distillers grains can also be used for mushroom cultivation. The latter is almost 1:1 efficient. |
sorry- was not aware of this. |
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Nicholai
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 556
Location: St.Albert, AB
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:07 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here? |
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| Quote: | | By that I mean, anyone who believes that the era of cheap oil is over, and that life will probably get steadily tougher for the majority of people, but doesn't think that we'll be resorting to cannibalism to survive within a decade, but that could be a potential scenario in the future if the right action isn't taken now. |
When did the aftermath of peak oil become a faith-based topic?
Do I BELIEVE that the vast majority of the third, second and first world will be drowned into poverty by stagflation within the next 5 years? I might, but that doesn't mean a god damn thing unless I can prove it with facts and figures.
This isn't a question of belief, it is a question of mathematical data leading to a logical conclusion...
If we're going to base our arguments on this forum solely on belief, then what are we going to achieve? Definitely no serious argument if that's the case.
Last edited by Nicholai on Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ludi
Expert
Joined: Dec 27, 2004
Posts: 12022
Location: zombie horde wonderland
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:07 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here? |
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| graham wrote: |
Not enough fish to go around though- got to get our protein from somewhere. |
Adult* humans actually need relatively little protein. It is possible (though challenging) to get all the protein one needs from a vegan diet. Getting the proper fatty acids and a few other nutrients can be difficult, but possible. The western meat diet provides far more protein than adults need.
* the average adult, some may need more than others
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Last edited by Ludi on Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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davep
Expert
Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Posts: 1205
Location: Burgundy, France
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here? |
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| graham wrote: | | davep wrote: | | graham wrote: | | Not enough fish to go around though- got to get our protein from somewhere. |
I was referring to an on-farm process of using CO2 (from ethanol production, for example) to aid in algae growth which is then fed to fish in ponds. It's extremely efficient. The distillers grains can also be used for mushroom cultivation. The latter is almost 1:1 efficient. |
sorry- was not aware of this. |
It's also why, in a properly managed system, ethanol production does not take food away from human consumption. Even now they feed the distillers grains to farm animals (and it has as much protein content as the original crop e.g. corn).
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All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become. - Buddha |
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pstarr
Expert
Joined: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 7084
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here? |
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| Quote: | | CORNUCOPIAN PARADIGM: A view of past and future human progress that disregards the carrying capacity concept, pays no attention to the finiteness of the world or to differences between takeover and drawdown, and accepts uncritically the myth of limitlessness. (Catton) |
The science of ecology is more threatening to the reigning paradigm then even evolution. It suggests that our very success is a threat to the natural world that harbors us. Evolution only tells us we come from animals. Ecology informs us that we will return there.
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davep
Expert
Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Posts: 1205
Location: Burgundy, France
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here? |
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| pstarr wrote: | | Quote: | | CORNUCOPIAN PARADIGM: A view of past and future human progress that disregards the carrying capacity concept, pays no attention to the finiteness of the world or to differences between takeover and drawdown, and accepts uncritically the myth of limitlessness. (Catton) |
The science of ecology is more threatening to the reigning paradigm then even evolution. It suggests that our very success is a threat to the natural world that harbors us. Evolution only tells us we come from animals. Ecology informs us that we will return there. |
Oi! This is a middle ground thread, not a cornucopian one. 
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All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become. - Buddha |
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Toploader
Tar Sands
Joined: Oct 30, 2005
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Any middle grounders here? |
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My views make even the most hardened doomers seem moderate.
So I tend not to bother posting them, there is not point in bringing people around to hopelessness when there is nothing they can do about it. The party’s not quite over yet after all.
And as the saying goes, those that believe it can't be done should not get in the way of those actually trying to do it. |
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