Joined: Sep 08, 2005 Posts: 750 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Given a Shovel, Americans Dig Deeper Into Debt
Ludi wrote:
Byron100 wrote:
You gotta pick one or the other, though...
No, I do not support dictatorship. Sorry. I just don't.
I don't either, but that's what we're going to get in the USA in the coming years. That's why I said what I said, to pick one or the other. Lessor of two evils sorta of thing. I happen to like socialism a bit better since it spreads the pain more evenly over the population, as opposed to tossing the masses in the gutter so the elite can live high on the hog for a few more years.
If this is unacceptable to you, I suggest moving to another country ASAP, one that is much less likely to adopt a dictatorship. New Zealand and Costa Rica are two countries that come to mind, as well as many others, I'm sure. _________________ Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide...
...and the meek shall inherit the Earth!
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: Given a Shovel, Americans Dig Deeper Into Debt
This post has basically opened the can of worms called:
one hundred and one things wrong with America and what the hell can we do to undo the colossal clusterf__k that we have created?
Apparently the person in today's world who gives a rat's ass about what is going on and what would be the "right" thing to do to fix it, is the one with the problem.
Joined: Apr 06, 2006 Posts: 3372 Location: 3 miles NW of Champoeg, Republic of Cascadia
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: Given a Shovel, Americans Dig Deeper Into Debt
Twilight wrote:
jbrovont wrote:
So here we are, technically and socially advanced, with our hand stuck around a banana in a bottle.
Great post!
+1. Don't forget to factor in the importance of status. Our subject could buy her coffee at McDonald's or a gas station - or, how tacky, make it herself - but that green logo sends out that "I'm hip and well-heeled" message to...social workers that are attempting to keep her afloat? The news crew?
Mr Bill - Don't forget to have a few weapons handy to deal with this woman and her ilk when they come rooting around your desmne for scraps out of the garbage. Not only can you put them out of their misery but your Remington/Ruger stocks will kick along!
Hmm, boom in heavy machinery for gravediggers. Urn/coffin manafacturing skyrockets. "Dieoffanomics?" _________________ Cogito, ergo non satis bibivi
I will not abide another toe.
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:37 am Post subject: Re: Given a Shovel, Americans Dig Deeper Into Debt
hironegro wrote:
People will always spend more than they have. This is a basic concept of Macroeconomics.
No, it is not!
Quote:
Mr Bill - Don't forget to have a few weapons handy to deal with this woman and her ilk when they come rooting around your desmne for scraps out of the garbage. Not only can you put them out of their misery but your Remington/Ruger stocks will kick along!
Most of our guns are already several generations old, so those stocks will have to find some new demand...
I am not too worried about people looking for a few scraps, more like the organized crime one sees in places like Jo'berg. That is some pretty scary stuff!
Around our farm most of the theft is unorganized and more opportunistic. Actually we have photos of the guy who has been stealing stuff from us, but the police will not act on this information. They want us to catch him 'red handed'. What a great idea. In a place where everyone carries a knife and has a gun in their pick-up let's just confront this guy when we catch him red handed. Ya, great idea! ; - )) _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:02 am Post subject: Re: Given a Shovel, Americans Dig Deeper Into Debt
hironegro wrote:
People will always spend more than they have. This is a basic concept of Macroeconomics.
That makes no sense at all.
Loan payments (principal + Interest) cuts back on future spending power.
It is mathematically impossible to continuously spend more then what you earn.
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:16 am Post subject: Re: Given a Shovel, Americans Dig Deeper Into Debt
cube wrote:
hironegro wrote:
People will always spend more than they have. This is a basic concept of Macroeconomics.
That makes no sense at all.
Loan payments (principal + Interest) cuts back on future spending power.
It is mathematically impossible to continuously spend more then what you earn.
Exactly! Thank you. _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Joined: Sep 08, 2005 Posts: 750 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:41 am Post subject: Re: Given a Shovel, Americans Dig Deeper Into Debt
cube wrote:
hironegro wrote:
People will always spend more than they have. This is a basic concept of Macroeconomics.
That makes no sense at all.
Loan payments (principal + Interest) cuts back on future spending power.
It is mathematically impossible to continuously spend more then what you earn.
Well, actually it is, at least until they reformed the bankruptcy laws a few years back. People running up CC debt, defaulting, running them up again a few years later, defaulting, rinse and repeat. That "free" money is coming from somewhere, but it sure isn't what the person earned...LOL.
MrBill...can you explain this to me, if you could: If a nation like the US defaults on its national debt, flushes all that out, starts over with a new currency, and then does that again a few decades in the future, over and over again for generations, where does all that "free" money come from? And if all home loans were to be canceled tomorrow, would that mean homedebtors would have actual wealth that was never earned or saved?
Of course, I think debt is one of humanity's worse inventions ever...to me, it's like the heroin of economics...hehe. _________________ Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide...
...and the meek shall inherit the Earth!
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: Re: Given a Shovel, Americans Dig Deeper Into Debt
Byron, I will tackle that one tomorrow. Usually debt is repaid through a combination of inflation, currency devaluation, debt repayment including interest (future wealth), slower growth and reduced (future) consumption. We can argue tomorrow whether inflation, currency devaluation and debt default is 'free money'? Usually countries that go down that route are much poorer for it in the end.
Argentina is a serial defaulter. I think that kept them poorer than they would have been had they just spent within their means and developed normally. At least at the turn of 19th century the GDP of France, Canada and Argentina were very similar. Now Argentina is a minnow in comparison and there has been a real human cost to their five debt defaults in the intervening decades. I really do not think they got away with anything. But we can talk about the USA tomorrow. Cheers. _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Joined: Sep 08, 2005 Posts: 750 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:16 am Post subject: Re: Given a Shovel, Americans Dig Deeper Into Debt
Rather than start a new thread, I''ll just use this one to propose one of my "alternate history" fantasies...if some of you folks could be so kind to comment on this, it'd be much appreciated.
Alternate history of the United States: The Founding Fathers, looking ahead into the future, they see the value of saving money for the future, as well as the poisonous nature of debt. So, they include in the new Constitution that the Federal Government must run a surplus of at LEAST 10% a year, for the next 200 years. This money would go into US Treasury Bonds, the interest paid on it would just be reinvested into the pile. Also, they include in the Constitution that loaning money for interest is strictly prohibited by law, both on the federal and state level. If someone wants to buy something, they gotta save for it in advance. So, America is founded on the principle of "anti debt"...saving is the path to wealth.
Fast forward to the year 2000. America gets together on a national discussion on what to do with the huge pile of money sitting in the so-called National Fund, which if released, would yield annual interest payments of approx $50,000 for *every man, woman and child* (and no, illegal immigrants can't have any, not a dime, you gotta be a US citizen, bro...LOL). So, they amend the Constitution to award interest from the National Fund so everyone gets that $50,000 a year, for each and every year from here on forward.
So, does that mean America would be wealthy beyond imagining? Wouldn't there be enough national wealth so we could all live in mile-tall glass towers, powered by gargantuan fusion plants, while vast spaceships go around harvesting the riches of the Solar System? Would we be well on our way to a Utopian Star Trek-like future, in which no one wants for anything, as there is pretty much unlimited money to pay for all the technological wonders our minds could possibly conceive?
Or would all this lead to a total economic clusterf*ck even worse than the one we're in now, with Armageddon about to arrive any day now?
Comments, anyone? _________________ Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide...
...and the meek shall inherit the Earth!
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: Re: Given a Shovel, Americans Dig Deeper Into Debt
Byron100 wrote:
Rather than start a new thread, I''ll just use this one to propose one of my "alternate history" fantasies...if some of you folks could be so kind to comment on this, it'd be much appreciated.
wow now that is very hypothetical.
I will tackle just 1 aspect: "the budget" because this is too much too answer in 1 post.
Furthermore I'm going to make a revision by proposing a balanced budget instead of a surplus.
If public money went to paying off debt today instead of "spending" then a lot of jobs would be lost.
gov. "spending" == jobs
building freeways, schools, and public transit systems for example
Of course I'm not advocating running a budget deficit. That just leads to inflation in the future -> loss of purchasing power -> less spending -> less jobs.
So we have a choice, either pay now or pay later.
Nothing is free in life.
Getting back to the example there are 2 "forces" at work here:
1) If the USA ran a balanced budget for 200 years there would be a lot of jobs NOT produced. So the economy would of been smaller
but...
2) A balanced budget means no inflation. Society's purchasing power never would of diminished thus that would strengthen the economy.
Which of these two forces is "stronger"? IMHO option 2)
No country ever grew rich in the long term by mismanaging their currency. As what MrBill mentioned earlier --> Argentina
Joined: Sep 08, 2005 Posts: 750 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Given a Shovel, Americans Dig Deeper Into Debt
Quote:
Getting back to the example there are 2 "forces" at work here:
1) If the USA ran a balanced budget for 200 years there would be a lot of jobs NOT produced. So the economy would of been smaller
but...
2) A balanced budget means no inflation. Society's purchasing power never would of diminished thus that would strengthen the economy.
So what you're saying, that the economy would have been smaller initially, but would have grown larger than it otherwise would have some point down the line? That makes sense to me.
Another point to make too, is the lack of having to pay interest on the national debt...imagine if that money stayed with the people or went into physical infrastructure projects (preferably the kind that pays off for future generations, such as the famed TVA project of the 1930s)...wouldn't our standard of living be a lot higher than we currently enjoy today?
For every job that is "lost" today, due to cost-cutting measures of maintaining a balanced budget, doesn't that mean the potential for 1.2 new jobs tomorrow, due to that dollar saved being used elsewhere, without the penalty of interest paid? I sure hope that makes sense too... _________________ Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide...
...and the meek shall inherit the Earth!
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