Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: Jul 12, 2007 Posts: 46 Location: Mississippi, USA
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
Ludi is absolutely right, you can't expect to start a garden one day and eat the next.
This is my third year, the first was a complete failure. The spot I chose had too much clay and nothing survived. I have tried three different spots in my yard and finally found one that has good dark, rich topsoil. This has been my major prep for PO but I am still using a gas tiller and a small tractor to row it up. Doing all this with a shovel and hoe would be a real back breaker, although it can be done. Just the fact that the soil has been turned last year makes it easier the next year. I have avoided using chemical fertilizers and herbicides. But I have to use ant killer...the fire ants around here will literally eat you alive. _________________ A horse is like a motorcycle that loves you back!
Joined: Dec 18, 2004 Posts: 4994 Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
pstarr wrote:
On occasion I've spent a lot of time and sweat growing my vegetables. We (my wife and I) have probably eatin our own veggies exclusively for as long as 6 months--from early summer to early winter.
Not saying much. I'll bet they accounted for less than 1/4 of my food calories and who knows how much protein? The rest? Meat, pasta, fish, dessert, canned food, frozen food, dinners out, friends, etc. etc. etc.
I have never in my life ever met anyone who is self-sufficient. But I'll be slaughtering another duck this weekend for practice.
I've heard it mentioned frequently, but I've yet to meet one either.
We too grow vegetables and from early summer until late fall we don't eat any vegetables other than what we grow and what we get from the nearby CSA. Next summer cut out the CSA, meaning doubling the amount we grow. Wish us luck.
I mentioned this long ago, but I calculated last year we grew less than 1% of out annual calories. This year we want to reach 2%. Four people somewhere around 3 million calories are needed. We're planing to harvest 70,000. Next year we'll reach maybe 4% because the fruit trees will finally be contributing. But this few percent is almost half our vegetables and fruit. The goal is 8 to 10% maybe three years from now. It'll mean expanding and better planning and it's doable.
Reaching 2 or 4% is fun. Reaching 10% will be very hard work. _________________ Got Dharma?
Joined: Jan 03, 2005 Posts: 1212 Location: western Wisconsin
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
We've been gardening seriously for over 30 years, and grow a good deal of our food, but it isn't easy. It takes lots of work, you have to pay attention, and every year is different. On the other hand, the rewards are great, you always get something no matter how bad the year, and the food is fresh and nutritious.
Joined: Aug 11, 2005 Posts: 826 Location: Eastern NC
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:25 pm Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
A friend of mine many years ago worked for the Peace Corp in Bolivia.
Her task was to get the subsistent farming peasants to grow a wider variety of vegetables for vitamins. They grew almost exclusively grains and potatoes. Growing any significant amount of calories, especially without an animal or petroleum powered equipment is, and always will be hard work. Growing a few tomatoes, squash and cucumbers is a piece of cake, but there are no calories there.
Joined: Jul 12, 2007 Posts: 46 Location: Mississippi, USA
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
Of course you can be self sufficient. It won't be easy but it can be done. People have done it for thousands of years. My grandparents pretty much did it only 50 years ago. Less than 100 yards from where I am now. They had a 15 acre farm with cows, horses, pigs and veggies. My grandmother got up at dawn to milk the cows and churned her own butter. My grandfather butchered the cows and pigs and did all the canning. All while working full time as a railroad engineer. They had a small pond we used to walk thru with a big net to get bait fish so we could go fishing for catfish in the creek. The pond is gone now but the creek is still there. The pasture is now a pine forest with trees 50 - 75 feet tall. Their water came from a shallow well that had to be boiled before drinking. They heated with wood during the short winters and sweated their asses off in summer. They raised 6 kids (or should I say slaves) like this.
People may think MS is a backwoods place full of rednecks (and they would be right). But when TSHTF the people here will still remember how to survive. My girlfriend is from TN and has the same story to tell about her grandparents. There will be a dieoff but I don't plan to be part of it!! _________________ A horse is like a motorcycle that loves you back!
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
eastbay wrote:
pstarr wrote:
On occasion I've spent a lot of time and sweat growing my vegetables. We (my wife and I) have probably eatin our own veggies exclusively for as long as 6 months--from early summer to early winter.
Not saying much. I'll bet they accounted for less than 1/4 of my food calories and who knows how much protein? The rest? Meat, pasta, fish, dessert, canned food, frozen food, dinners out, friends, etc. etc. etc.
I have never in my life ever met anyone who is self-sufficient. But I'll be slaughtering another duck this weekend for practice.
I've heard it mentioned frequently, but I've yet to meet one either.
We too grow vegetables and from early summer until late fall we don't eat any vegetables other than what we grow and what we get from the nearby CSA. Next summer cut out the CSA, meaning doubling the amount we grow. Wish us luck.
I mentioned this long ago, but I calculated last year we grew less than 1% of out annual calories. This year we want to reach 2%. Four people somewhere around 3 million calories are needed. We're planing to harvest 70,000. Next year we'll reach maybe 4% because the fruit trees will finally be contributing. But this few percent is almost half our vegetables and fruit. The goal is 8 to 10% maybe three years from now. It'll mean expanding and better planning and it's doable.
Reaching 2 or 4% is fun. Reaching 10% will be very hard work.
I guess my 25% was a bit optimistic. _________________ ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1497 Location: Appalachian Foothills of Virginia
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
I wish there was an option "It depends".
Gardening can be quite a bit of work, though careful mulching greatly reduces weeding requirements.
Growing some fruits and nuts, on the other hand, require very little intervention or labor. In my experience, those with the least labor (such as spraying, pruning, etc) with little or no impact from Japanese Beetles in my area;
Joined: Nov 25, 2006 Posts: 1543 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
Ludi wrote:
This thread isn't meant to discourage people from growing their own food. I posted it mainly because folks were saying we can just take up growing our own food when times get tough, with the implication that it is easy and skills can be learned quickly. From my experience, if you wait until you're going hungry to learn to grow your own food, you're going to starve to death. If our society is to transition to localized growing of food, we need to do it sooner rather than later.
My personal goal is to learn to grow food as easily as possible in a somewhat harsh climate. I'm a long way from being good at it, and may never become so, but most of the time I enjoy the challenge. I have the luxury to enjoy it because I can still buy food at the store.
It will never be easy in a harsh climate. It will be a challenge everywhere. If you're rich enough to hire labor and fruit & nut trees already ready to fruit it will be much easier.
Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 5719 Location: Body in OK, Heart in TX
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
Native Americans were self sufficient. My understanding is the ones around here primarily ate bison, turtles, nuts, and wild greens and other forage. That was when the population density was a lot lower, there were still wild bison, and not lots of fences and property owners with guns.
I've found it a lot easier to grow eggs and milk than annuals. I disagree that animal products are harder to grow than fruit. Furthermore, they can be harvested year round and provide plenty of calories and fat which we need to live. My chickens can eat bugs and weeds and still produce a reasonable amount of eggs. The goats can also subsist on browse and produce a surplus of milk and meat if they are managed carefully. Currently my livestock are all fed purchased hay and feed, but I know they could survive without it if necessary. Some of the things that they can eat are easier to grow than typical garden crops. Sunchokes, fodder beets, even pine needles.
I do NOT have a green thumb. I think tree crops (nuts and fruits) are also more reliable than annuals. But it all depends on where you live. And tree crops are still susceptible to insect and disease and drought (just ask Heineken).
Of course, animals can also be killed off by disease and predators. But then again, the grocery stores could all go away pretty quickly too. There are no guarantees in life. _________________ "Every junkie's like a setting sun..." - Neil Young
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
I work with a bunch of guys. We sometimes perform jobs that require heavy labor, grueling at times. Ever move 40,000 bricks 75 feet straight up using a bucket, pulley and rope? How about doing it in an environment that demands you wear a one piece rubber suit in the middle of summer? Did I mention the 12 hour shifts with no days off until the project is done...in another month?
Someone will sooner or later complain to me "This is HARD!" I respond that it's a whole lot harder trying to pay your bills on what McDonald's is gonna give you.
I voted Yes in the poll. To me, its easy. Maybe I just have a knack for it. Maybe its the soil. Maybe its the organic system I use. Maybe I just compare it to what I do for a living right now. Fact of the matter is I've done it long enough to know what to expect.
It might be tough to grow your own potatoes, corn, chickens, feeding, watering, chasing off the wolves, but let me tell you:
It's a whole lot tougher when there's NO food.
Would you rather
A) spend a moment comforting a starving child
or
B) spend 12 hours in the hot sun battling horseflies to get enough food for that child.
If put into perspective, growing food really isn't that much of a challenge. You can find the needed persistence. You can find the will to keep on going. You can put up with working in the wind and rain, the scorching sun, the bugs and the brambles. You'll find a way to get water from where it is to where it needs to be. You can find a way to keep the deer, rabbits, skunks, possums, birds, and all types of beast from getting into your crops. You'll sit up all night waiting for that fox to move towards the henhouse.
One of the most important lessons I've learned that I try to instill in my men: What you can do, and what you think you can do, have nothing in common. The physical effort a person can put out in a day is considerable. Your body has abilities you are not aware of. You have an endurance level that, for most of us, has probably not been fully explored, and I don't care if you are 15 or 50. Some will say it's all in the mind. You can get all Zen if you like, but to find out, all you have to do is try. Do what you can with what you have to work with, and keep on going.
I see these guys, they've been humping all day. Sooner or later one of them will reach his limit; He just can't go on any more. I'll pull him aside, get him cooled down for a few minutes and talk about something completely unrelated to the job. It does good to get the mind off ones troubles. What I'm looking for is to see if discouragement or fatigue has set in. For fatigue, the best solution is a break to cool down, I have that covered already. For discouragement, the best weapon is encouragement. I don't command them to get back to work, that only brings resentment and sometimes foul language, I ask if they can give a little more until quitting time. "Just do what you can." It's all about trying. The attempt is often all that is needed to get the job done.
Over the course of several months, working a job heavy labor job will acclimate the body. You get used to it. Your body adjusts. You learn when to take it easy, when to give it all you got. If you are looking at your first job of hauling 75 pound sacks of thermal concrete up 7 stories of stairs, it is daunting. The next time you do it you know what to expect and you know you can do it because you've already done it.
Growing food is no different. Tilling a vast field the first time will appear to be a challenge. Working in the hot sun from sun up to sun down will suck, at least the first time. Stooping all day planting potatoes and lugging that heavy sack will probably break your back, the first time at least, maybe the second time, and the third too. But it will get easier. That sack is heavy because your muscles have not had to work together in a way to make it easy on the body. Of course its going to hurt. You have to tear down those muscles in order to build them back up, and its not going to happen overnight.
There is no fast solution. If you want the work to get easy, you have to get out there and do it. Not just once or twice, but every day or two at least. I know its hard, you can see how hard the job in front of you is. It has to be done. You are the only one to do it so you may as well get started. I'm not saying you have to move mountains or work until you pass out, the world has enough heroes on TV. Just do what you can. You'll find it gets easer the more you try. _________________ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--for ever."
-George Orwell, 1984
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1281 Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:56 pm Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
I agree, growing ALL your own food would be very difficult to achieve and very hard work. It would probably be almost impossible except in some few areas that combine almost perfect climate and soil, and even their you'll be fighting the weeds. But humans have almost never been totally self-sufficient as indivuduals, and hardly ever even as small communities. Humans have traded around the world for thousands of years.
I would suggest it would be better to concentrate on growing what grows easily on your particular patch and that has some demand in the local area, eg. 100km radius perhaps, and trade your value-added excess for whatever else you need. You may want to put some effort into growing a small proportion of something you especially like as a treat that is hard to get in the area, but put most of your effort into what provides a good trade. Aim more to help the local economic area become more self-sufficient in the important things, rather than just yourself. _________________ Kind regards, Katkinkate
"The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops,
but the cultivation and perfection of human beings."
Masanobu Fukuoka
Joined: Nov 25, 2006 Posts: 1543 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:04 pm Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
Shanny wrote:
I disagree that animal products are harder to grow than fruit.
Well, to be honest I've never raised animals before. From what I've heard though, fruit is pretty damn easy once the trees are in place. I remember these people from the farmer's market in Cali who have two avacado trees about 30 years old. Gives them about $2000 worth of avacados (probably a few hundred thousand Calories) a season & requires just an hour or two of work a week. To get the same amount of calories out of say, what, would require tons of effort (not to mention the energy required in cooking). _________________ My PO Amazon store (shameless plug).
Joined: May 20, 2008 Posts: 336 Location: Tennessee
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:15 pm Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
I couldn't vote yes or no, its more "it depends". I have grown somethings that did well inspite of me (ie: classified as "easy") and other things-forget it. I despise weeding so I mulch my garden. However, I agree this is a great question to put out there because some folks think they can just grow some food or shoot some wildlife so why try to prepare or learn now-this question will hopefully get that type of folk thinking a little more about what's involved. _________________ Rev 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be death, there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.
Joined: Oct 24, 2006 Posts: 121 Location: Pacific Northwest
Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
It is not easy. It is possible to do though - but most self sufficient homesteads are doing it through a combination of growing food, hunting food, and foraging food. Those actions coupled with an occassional trade of one item for another can get all the basics attended to. I've met a few depression era folks who indeed lived "off line" quite well.
Most people don't have the right location, skills, or community to do all of the above.
So you do a portion of it and fill in the remainder in the most efficient, sustainable, and frugal way possible.
I don't expect my garden to feed me 100%. I expect it to provide all the living nutrition necessary to keep a human vital and healthy. It provides a sizeable portion of calories to the diet - as we grow alot of potatoes, winter squash, and root crops. Used to grow alot of dried beans too - but found it is more efficient and economical to buy those along with the grains and to keep them stored - using long storage/preservation techniques. Have MANY years of grains and dried beans in reserve. In addition, we forage for wild berries, and dig clams and shuck oysters from our nearby shoreline. The rest we buy or keep in food reserves.
I don't think any one approach is going to do it for anyone - I believe it is dangerous to have your plans all wrapped up in one idea/method. Having many different resources and options gives you some fall back options if one should fail you or be "taken away" from you.
For those that poo poo any of us that garden seriously because we are not providing 100% of our caloric needs from the garden ... I say you are just not getting it. Gardens have almost never been the sole source of food for mankind - only a large part of it. Animal husbandry and hunting/gathering have been the important additional elements that finish the picture. In the absence of those - trade. _________________ Check out Our Modern "Victory Garden" - http://www.freewebs.com/kitsapfreedomgardener/
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13191 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:43 am Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
Narz wrote:
If you're rich enough to hire labor and fruit & nut trees already ready to fruit it will be much easier.
For me the labor hasn't been the hard part, though I do get tired. For me the hard part has been learning to adjust to the climate. I know it's certainly possible to grow food in a harsh climate, because loads of people do it across the globe. Of course a favorable climate would help. I'm gradually learning what will grow here, and how to plant to get things to survive. I'm a slow learner! _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
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ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap 
