Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: Jan 17, 2007 Posts: 43 Location: Central PA
Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:54 am Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
Growing food is not easy. No way it's easy. I constanly lament the fact that we took up agriculture at all, but, I still think in the world we live in now, I will find possible to feed myself only with some form of agriculture. I don't find the physical aspect terribly daunting myself, but, I'm still pretty young (30 y.o.), and I have worked mostly hard physical jobs, many in the weather, and, I have been a grower for the past 8 years. I'm in good enough shape that the "backbreaking " part does not phase me. I think the number 1 problem right now, at least in my area, are critters. Deer, groundhogs, rabbits, squirrels, chipmunks, raccoons, they all want my garden, not to mention all the insect and fungal pests..I constantly trap and or shoot these damn things,. but, at this point, it's pretty much me vs. the world, I am sure I am the only person in the neighborhood who kills these things. I only hope that when things get really ugly, the sheeple around me start killing small game, or gardening is doomed to growing things they won't eat. I also plan to get a dog really soon. I'm moving to a more rural place this fall, which I think may actually be better, because the suburb I live in now, nobody can hunt, and hardly anybody gardens, we have probably the maximum amount of squirrels per acre possible. Growing enough calories does not seem too crazy, but, then, I have not done it yet myself. I'm going to try very hard to grow all my own food in the next 2 years, I will keep you posted. I am going to plant lots of potatoes, sweet potatoes, wheat, beans, corn, onions, squash, beets, etc..
I don't think growing food is at all easy, it's hard, for sure, with a very steep learning curve, but I still think it's possible. Maybe I will think it's easy 5-10 years from now, when my gardens are in great shape, and my trees are bearing fruit, but, I doubt it.
I also have to agree with Blistered Whippet that cities are not sustainable at all, maybe there is a way to make them sustainable, but they certainly are not now.
Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:19 am Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
Ludi wrote:
Nobody else around here is growing food - I think I would be a starving gunsmith.
Though I kind of like the idea of the Mad Gunsmith.
It does not have to be all black or all white for you.
I'd tell you grow some food...as much as you can. Also be a forager, hunt and kill game in the wild and also the ones you lure onto your property. Have a pond to stock with fish. Then hope they distribute some gov cheese and you may be fed.
And you can be a gunsmith as well. But with the high cost of ammo there wont be as many worn out guns...no one can afford to shoot much!
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13191 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
I will do all I can to avoid government cheese/bread lines! _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
It is easy growing enough greens for your family. BUt growing all your food - I think I wouldn't be able even given enough land, at least not minding kids meanwhile, you would work day to day.
Joined: Nov 25, 2006 Posts: 1543 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
BlisteredWhippet wrote:
Lumpy wrote:
BlisteredWhippet wrote:
the people you feed are cretins who labor to destroy the common resources sustainable agriculture depends on.
Well, the people WE feed are not cretins -- they are US ... and whomever we decide to take into our circle.
Maybe you were referring to larger scale agriculture?
Otherwise, I don't get why you would make such a statement.
Please enlighten.
Thanks
Lumpy
I'm talking about farming, not some stupid hobby farm you feed yourselves and assorted hick neighbors, I'm talking about feeding one of those large metro areas that are filled with half a million people that generate something called and "economy" which makes pieces of paper valuable.
Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
I am a bit obsessed by growing veggies.
Last week in our weekend cottage I spent hours hauling water to our tiny garden, about 6 square meters. We do not have running water at that place, so it is a matter of carrying buckets from the pump. No rain for over a month. I am certain I spend more calories growing the few carrots, onions, lettuce, peas and potatoes that I can harvest than what I get back in food calories.
Yet for me it makes a lot more sense than going to a gym for workouts.
I grow more stuff at our suburban home, where there is a hose. I believe at least the potatoes and the apples give more food calories than I spend growing them.
In both places the main limiting factor for expanding the gardens is lack of sunny spots.
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:45 am Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
I would have to say yes and no. I think the most accurate thing I could say right now, as far as my experience goes, is that growing food is a learning process. The process is dependent on: your climate, your soil, your space, your commitment and effort, and your luck.
Trial and error:
I planted 7 raspberry bushes this year; 3 died, 4 survived. I have no clue why 3 died. Will plant a few more next year.
I planted 12 tomato plants, different varieties, all are doing fabulously and we'll have lots of tomatoes, providing August is relatively warm and sunny. I could have allotted more space for them, though, as they're a bit crowded.
I planted beans (bush type), and about one-third of the seeds planted didn't come up. The ones that did come up are growing beautifully. The owner of a garden center nearby encouraged me to buy my seeds at his establishment next spring because his seeds are always fresh. I'm not 100% certain that the seeds I planted were old, though, or if there was some other reason why some of them didn't produce plants.
The carrot seeds demanded all my patience as they are so small and difficult to plant evenly. Luckily, after the plants come up, you just thin them out if you sprinkled the seeds too liberally. The plants are doing well.
I had what I thought was a great idea for two of my old flower beds, which are long, narrow planting areas which run along the entire length of two sides of my city house. One bed faces west and the other, north. I planted peas, using 3 foot high bamboo stakes and plastic netting. Everything was great until we had about a week of rainy, windy weather and the weight of the plants (now 5 feet high) toppled the netting and lay on the sidewalk. I quickly ran out and got some 6 foot bamboo stakes and tied up the plants, which by this time were wrapped around each other and it took 3 hours for me to straighten them out. I'll do this a bit differently next year. We will have lots of peas, though. The bed facing west will be ready for harvesting earlier than the one facing north, which I expected.
The peppers and cucumbers are moving along very slowly; just flowering now, even though they're in sunny spots. I guess I'll have to get them in the ground earlier next year and risk the cool spring weather. The zucchini plants will produce more than we can use, though.
I'll have to give some thought to rotating crops in future years in order to keep them healthy. This will be a bit of a challenge, as the places I'm growing each crop now are supposedly matched to their sunlight requirements.
Work/Commitment:
I've found that one needs to keep tabs on the garden all the time; if it's been hot and sunny, daily watering is needed for some plants. When it's been rainy, the weeds go crazy.
A friend of mine was visiting and I showed her around our yard, which I actually am quite proud of right now. She commented on how good the soil looks in our beds, and asked if it was just like that? I explained to her that we have spent a few years adding top soil, potting soil and compost to the beds, digging it up every spring and fall to loosen it. It used to be almost solid clay.
We plan to increase the size of our beds. I'll probably work on this in the fall. I'd also like to try some container gardening. We could eventually, if need be, use our entire front and back yards for growing veggies and fruit bushes, although it would take considerable effort to expand the garden that much and to create the same quality of soil we currently have in our small beds.
Percentage of our food intake:
Very small. Will provide a few weeks worth of fiber and vitamins. I should have some extra tomatoes for salsa. Of course, it will be tasty eating and I'll have the satisfaction of knowing I did it myself!
Even though we can expand the size of our garden, we are limited by our climate with a short (3-month) growing season. Still, the potential is there to grow enough to can and freeze some, and when our apple tree begins producing a lot of fruit, that will be a good addition.
In some ways, it's true that all you have to do is plant a seed, water it, and it grows, but there are a few unknowns.
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
Caveman's frustration is shared by many, I'm sure. Get a good cat, man. I've got a 20 pounder that is fantastic at keeping the garden pest free. He loves it! It's all he does for fun.
If you have time to plan ahead~ and you do, agriculture can be fairly easy. Plot everything out well, come up with systems for planting, watering (not powered by electricity), protection, rotation, etc. EVERYTHING is a learning experience and it should get better with each passing season. I'm only one year into being a "gardener" and the learnings have been a blast!
Combine gardening with foraging and hunting and I think survival is a distinct possibility. It's all those PEOPLE you have to worry about
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
eastbay wrote:
pstarr wrote:
On occasion I've spent a lot of time and sweat growing my vegetables. We (my wife and I) have probably eatin our own veggies exclusively for as long as 6 months--from early summer to early winter.
Not saying much. I'll bet they accounted for less than 1/4 of my food calories and who knows how much protein? The rest? Meat, pasta, fish, dessert, canned food, frozen food, dinners out, friends, etc. etc. etc.
I have never in my life ever met anyone who is self-sufficient. But I'll be slaughtering another duck this weekend for practice.
I've heard it mentioned frequently, but I've yet to meet one either.
We too grow vegetables and from early summer until late fall we don't eat any vegetables other than what we grow and what we get from the nearby CSA. Next summer cut out the CSA, meaning doubling the amount we grow. Wish us luck.
I mentioned this long ago, but I calculated last year we grew less than 1% of out annual calories. This year we want to reach 2%. Four people somewhere around 3 million calories are needed. We're planing to harvest 70,000. Next year we'll reach maybe 4% because the fruit trees will finally be contributing. But this few percent is almost half our vegetables and fruit. The goal is 8 to 10% maybe three years from now. It'll mean expanding and better planning and it's doable.
Reaching 2 or 4% is fun. Reaching 10% will be very hard work.
Ruth Stout is the only person I have ever seen do it and that was on the dvd Ruth Stouts Garden. She says she hasn't stepped into a grocery store in 14 years.
Joined: Apr 12, 2007 Posts: 1198 Location: Central NC
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
Commanding_Heights wrote:
Ruth Stout is the only person I have ever seen do it and that was on the dvd Ruth Stouts Garden. She says she hasn't stepped into a grocery store in 14 years.
That brings back memories. My parents were friends with Ruth. She lived one town over from us. As far as my Father was concerned, if the words came out of Ruth's mouth it was gardening gospel. _________________ "The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences…"
Sir Winston Churchill
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
In our urban setting, critters could soon become a problem. Over the last few years we've seen the wild rabbit population steadily increasing, although a fair number of them are roadkill. I'd say just around our block we currently have about 10 of them now. There are quite a few green spaces (small parks) close by and large school yards and community parks, so I can see the population continuing to boom. However, they haven't bothered my garden yet. They seem to eat the weeds under the spruce tree.
Squirrels are another matter. We didn't have a resident squirrel until about 18 months ago. Then there were 2, now there are 6 (that I know of). A couple of squirrels in your spruce tree are cute, but I can see this population booming in short order as well. One morning we awoke to the sounds of frenzied chatter and saw that one of the squirrels was affixed to our garage window, obviously chattering to something inside. The family of squirrels had made their way into the garage the day before, and when my husband locked the side door at night they were all in there except for the one on the outside of the window. We managed to chase them all out.
We plan to get a couple of new dogs this fall; that will probably help to keep the other animals out of our yard. Our old dog was quite deaf and blind over the past 1 to 2 years and was not much of a deterrent!
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
Narz wrote:
BlisteredWhippet wrote:
Lumpy wrote:
BlisteredWhippet wrote:
the people you feed are cretins who labor to destroy the common resources sustainable agriculture depends on.
Well, the people WE feed are not cretins -- they are US ... and whomever we decide to take into our circle.
Maybe you were referring to larger scale agriculture?
Otherwise, I don't get why you would make such a statement.
Please enlighten.
Thanks
Lumpy
I'm talking about farming, not some stupid hobby farm you feed yourselves and assorted hick neighbors, I'm talking about feeding one of those large metro areas that are filled with half a million people that generate something called and "economy" which makes pieces of paper valuable.
So Lumpy's neighbors are "hicks" and everyone else is a "cretin"? What are you?
Indeed. What "am" I? Let me tell you something. The people that know, don't tell, and the people that tell, don't know.
My comment on this topic is simple:
Modern societies used to depend on a large class of people who were contributing citizens, politcally active, virtuous and hardworking, who had a strong, vital connection to the natural processes which all forms of life depend. That class of people GONE, replaced by the visscitudes of time and the cultural pressures of capitalism, by asystem of machines and a rather large class of slave laborers, that are almost completely invisible.
The "Exploiters" of this system, I call "cretins". They are a product of mass-produced calories, and are responsible, in part, no matter how diffuse their contribution, to the problem of ecological degradation, and ultimately, as is unfolding, a pangenocidal disintigration of the planet's ability to support life as we know it.
There is a definition of "Cretins" that I find remarkably accurate:
Quote:
"Cretin" is a very old term (the oldest listed here) and is thought to come from the French word meaning Christian. This term originally reflected the promising perspective that people with mental retardation were "still Christian" and should thus be treated with kindness."
I find this defintion to be a good one, because it mirrors the ethos that many "average" people hold today, namely, that you can be a complete farking moron and be excused for it, or that all you need to do is "hope" and make believe positive rationalizations exonerate your day-to-day transgressions. Those transgressions are the thousand manifold ways cowardice is expressed in the desperate acts of everyday life. Consumers vaccuum value out of the environment at a distance that makes such a perception abstract.
Maybe it isn't a Cretin's fault he's a Cretin. Like a retarded person, he claims no responsibility for his actions. But unlike a retarded person, he connives to support his worldview. He knows better but rationalizes. This makes him evil, but his religion exonerates him. (His religion being a traditional type, or simply a collection of common beliefs.)
My comment was about what I call the Paradox of Modern Agriculture. Paraphrased, it is this: a "responsible" farmer, practicing sustainability and environmental wisdom, grows food, which is commodified and distributed to feed a broad spectrum of people, the vast majority are the cretins described above. The mass effects of cretins imposing their biological impact on the environment globally, are simply reversing the efficacy of sustainable practices upon which they depend.
Farming is a paradox when: You grow the food to feed the people that cause the problems your practices are designed to mitigate.
I suspect that this aspect of agriculture is and was mostly everpresent. Not all systems of Ag carried these consequences. Rich people, ("modern" people) do not practice the responsibility that their power requires to create sustainable conditions. Farmers work harder than most, are paid last or least, and in the end their reward is failure and death. Modern society is a pigpile with Jr. Nazis feeding the trough, and the most senior Nazis enjoying the fruits of a revolving "caste" of characters at the bottom. This characterizes most people you see on the street every day.
The modern sustainable farmer is the most tragic figure among the cast of characters that make up modern society. Tragic, because his mission is noble and good; it is connected to the Earth and therefore a sense of human destiny. He is the caretaker of future life. But he is building castles in the sand.
Those waves? Cretins.
Hobby farmers, subsistence farmers, and the like, are all in the same boat, only the tragedy here is that they do not anticipate the tsunami that is coming. Their "self-sufficiency" is a mere illusion, an act of benign self-deceit. I'm talking about the people who, for some reason, suddenly have a "come to Jesus" moment and take up the "hobby" of farming.
These people are retired, have multiple income streams (with corresponding collateral damage to the environment), and no risk of real failure. They do not have a distinct and vital connection to nature. They drive tractors, they are likely one foot in the grave, retired types, people who learned everything they know from a few books. They can't pick up dirt and squish it in their hand and know anything because of it. They cannot see into the future through the explosion of the genetic abundance all around them because they are nothing but a walking, talking bag of shite with no real wisdom, no real knowledge. Their hobby lacks a sacred element of knowledge. Their testimonials are breezy, fictional anecdotes.
Take a walk through the hallways and laboratories of your local land-grant college. Agriculture is applied science and an art. I find it galling to constantly be confronted by people without any Art and surely without any Science in their "Agriculture". In fact, what they are is little more than glorified English gardeners, no more knowledgable than the stoned Mexicans running two-stroke motors all day long making geometric shapes out of perennials so rich men can Fark their wives in expensive palaces Realtors call "homes".
As farmers, they are failures: that is what being unable to feed more than a handful of people is, let alone being too cowardly to slaughter the deer and rats that attack their crops. In terms of "sustainability", they are failures for all the BTUs pumped into the gas tanks of their machinery, they are failures for every pound of topsoil that blows off, every pound of fertilizer wasted, every drop of water carried away.
My contention is that most if not all people play hobby farm, whether it is growing grass, or flowers, or conspiring with the external decorators to blow beauty bark all over plastic sheeting and call it beauty or Art, or keep vanity animals because they're pretty, or pay someone with equipment to play farmer for them and hay a field.
They still eat 90% shite that was trucked up from Mexico, California, or elsewhere. They have no roadmap for sustainability and they are going to hell as surely as I am sitting here typing this at you people. What is hell for Cretins? Having to grow their own food. Growing food for cretins is a kind of hell as well, by most measures, a dirtier, grittier, uglier kind of hell.
The people that try aren't cretins, but they must be evaluated as such if they farm in a cretinly way. I think that's fair.
As for hicks, we know what that means. Country morons as opposed to city morons.
Joined: Nov 25, 2006 Posts: 1543 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: Growing Food is Easy
That was a more in-depth response than I anticipated, thanks, but you still didn't answer my question.
You're still alive which means, at least on some level, you want to be alive. You're aware of the triteness of modern society & the vulnerability of it & certainly you've thought about your place in it.
Forget "what are you?". I'm more curious what are you doing personally to maximize your own survival or at least give your life some meaning on the way out? _________________ My PO Amazon store (shameless plug).
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