Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:57 pm Post subject: Re: Urban Farming Revolution! :D
that's it. In the city you can plant fruits and veggies maybe honey eggs. But staples, milk and meat cannot be grown there in a sufficient amount. The problem in the future will be there, not enough wheat rice, pulses milk and meat, because we concreted to much agricultural soil, made to may babies and grow even petrol.
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:42 am Post subject: Re: Urban Farming Revolution! :D
This is precisely the paradigm that our company is trying to implement here in NYC. By concentrating on the growing of produce on rooftops and balconies, we can lower food costs drastically for ordinary people. Over the course of our field trials a couple of technical bottlenecks needs to be resolved for this operation to be entirely sustainable however.
One is that not enough organic materials can be put back into the container systems as taken out of it. The system is not a closed loop, due to the loss of human effluence that is leaving the city and heading into the ocean daily. One approach would be to ban certain chemicals from commercial use, and simply capture all sewage waste for composting. The composted material can then be fed back into the containers. But we would have to change some major municipal laws for that to happen.
The 2nd major bottleneck is that perennials are harder to maintain on smaller soil bases(more compact root networks, faster water loss). This forces us to adopt more annuals and makes gardening in dense urban zones more labor intensive than in sparse urban zones. One way around it is to retrofit rooftops with layered turf coverings, but this is a very expensive option currently.
On the flip side, the lack of an ecology in most of NYC gives us a great opportunity to try out guilds which would never work in a suburban environment. We could select heirloom varieties of produce optimized for yields rather than pest resistance, since the surrounding ecology is not robust enough to sustain viable pest populations. _________________ http://backtowilderness.blogspot.com http://grown-up-permaculture.com
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 4590 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:19 am Post subject: Re: Urban Farming Revolution! :D
"One is that not enough organic materials can be put back into the container systems as taken out of it."
That's my main problem with all this. When TSHTF people will certainly start up victory gardens but if fertilizer and herbicides become cost prohibitive, it will seem like a great experiment at first but they will just quickly deplete their yard's soil unless they find a way to close the loop.
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:17 am Post subject: Re: Urban Farming Revolution! :D
mos6507 wrote:
"One is that not enough organic materials can be put back into the container systems as taken out of it."
That's my main problem with all this. When TSHTF people will certainly start up victory gardens but if fertilizer and herbicides become cost prohibitive, it will seem like a great experiment at first but they will just quickly deplete their yard's soil unless they find a way to close the loop.
This problem is actually very complex to resolve for large cities. Take our city for example. It's sewer systems were not designed with recycling in mind, the effluence builds up in the sewer until a rainstorm flushes it into the ocean. So just to reliably capture the effluence before it flows out of the loop represents expensive macro-engineering challenges. A ban on harmful chemical products would make the effluence fit for growing organic crops, but not necessarily human-consumable produce due to the presence of parasite eggs.
So really the best way is to compost the effluence and to ship it outside of the city to grow products such as bulk animal feed , fruits, or timber. And then non-human produced compost should be shipped into the city from the surrounding country side in exchange. The challenge is to make the economics of such a network competitive with the current paradigm. _________________ http://backtowilderness.blogspot.com http://grown-up-permaculture.com
Joined: Jan 02, 2008 Posts: 403 Location: out dispatching ronan...
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Urban Farming Revolution! :D
I'd second that book recommendation. It amazes me that someone would research and produce a brilliant book like that, that I cannot imagine made them any money, and for the good of everyone.
Fascinating read on a what's strangely become a taboo subject for most people.
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:51 am Post subject: Re: Urban Farming Revolution! :D
Re: one of the bottle necks.
I have my eye on one of these: Naturum - composting toilet. The current draw back is the size meaning that to install it I would have to redesign my bathroom space (which is long and very narrow) as I would not have enough 'leg room' to sit on it if it is placed where the existing wc is (the extra 10-15 cm in size is a problem for me).
The detailed documentation indicates that it would also be usable in apartment housing, so this sort of design could be used in urban areas.
Quote:
A high-quality composter toilet, for installation indoors and for continuous year-round use.
Requires no electrical or water connections. No chemicals employed.
Needs no installation through the floor, nor cellar space for a composting chamber.
Washing with water, bidet use, and liquid load capacity unlimited.
The "Contact page" has a distributor in Canada that also serves USA. _________________ We should teach our children the 4-Rs: Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Rejoice.
I have gone through the book. The problem isn't small scale manufacture of humanure in a rural setting. The issue is how to produce humanure in industrial scales. For every metric tonne of effluence you would need 3 to 4 metric tons of green matter to generate farm grade compost. Additionally, while parasite eggs may be minimized through a hot composting process, other effluence borne diseases are much more survivable. Cholera and Hepatitis being the worst kinds, they will survive the high temperatures in enough numbers to cause an epidemic. The key here is that our waste should be reconverted into something either non-edible OR go through the guts of another animal before the waste energy is given back to us as compost. That is the SAFEST way, imho. _________________ http://backtowilderness.blogspot.com http://grown-up-permaculture.com
I have gone through the book. The problem isn't small scale manufacture of humanure in a rural setting. The issue is how to produce humanure in industrial scales. For every metric tonne of effluence you would need 3 to 4 metric tons of green matter to generate farm grade compost. Additionally, while parasite eggs may be minimized through a hot composting process, other effluence borne diseases are much more survivable. Cholera and Hepatitis being the worst kinds, they will survive the high temperatures in enough numbers to cause an epidemic. The key here is that our waste should be reconverted into something either non-edible OR go through the guts of another animal before the waste energy is given back to us as compost. That is the SAFEST way, imho.
Vermicomposting is another thing you might look at. The resultant worm-compost mixture is very good for plant growth.
It sounds as though you have a good large-scale plan. The only concern I would have for NYC would be transporting all the 'stuff' around. _________________ Conservation is conservative
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the ones most responsive to change. -- Charles Darwin
Joined: May 13, 2005 Posts: 3068 Location: The Urban Village
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: Urban Farming Revolution! :D
xerces wrote:
So really the best way is to compost the effluence and to ship it outside of the city to grow products such as bulk animal feed , fruits, or timber. And then non-human produced compost should be shipped into the city from the surrounding country side in exchange. The challenge is to make the economics of such a network competitive with the current paradigm.
The outgoing part is basically what Arlington does
Arlington County's biosolids are land applied on permitted sites throughout rural Virginia and Maryland. Biosolids are transported and applied at approved farm sites by a contracted service. Arlington County's biosolids have been designated "Class B" which means that the biosolids contain small amounts of trace metals and organic compounds. Class B biosolids are very beneficial to land reclamation and provide valuable nutrients for secondary feed crops. Class B biosolids are not distributed for direct public use.
Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: Urban Farming Revolution! :D
mos6507 wrote:
"One is that not enough organic materials can be put back into the container systems as taken out of it."
That's my main problem with all this. When TSHTF people will certainly start up victory gardens but if fertilizer and herbicides become cost prohibitive, it will seem like a great experiment at first but they will just quickly deplete their yard's soil unless they find a way to close the loop.
Get a composting toilet. In Oregon, they are perfectly legal. If they are not legal in your neighborhood, then don't tell the building inspector. Boom. Closed loop. _________________ Just another tofu-munching bike-riding Rambo(/Rambette)
Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Urban Farming Revolution! :D
IslandCrow wrote:
Re: one of the bottle necks.
I have my eye on one of these: Naturum - composting toilet. The current draw back is the size meaning that to install it I would have to redesign my bathroom space (which is long and very narrow) as I would not have enough 'leg room' to sit on it if it is placed where the existing wc is (the extra 10-15 cm in size is a problem for me).
The detailed documentation indicates that it would also be usable in apartment housing, so this sort of design could be used in urban areas.
Quote:
A high-quality composter toilet, for installation indoors and for continuous year-round use.
Requires no electrical or water connections. No chemicals employed.
Needs no installation through the floor, nor cellar space for a composting chamber.
Washing with water, bidet use, and liquid load capacity unlimited.
The "Contact page" has a distributor in Canada that also serves USA.
There is no reason to put it where your flush toilet currently sits. Leave your flush toilet in place for guests, who may be either fussy or sick, and put the composter in your mud room, laundry room, walk in closet, back yard storage shed, where ever is convenient.
By the way, for those of you that feel you have to have meat, chickens, rabbits and guinea pigs are all perfectly practical meat animals for a suburban back yard. You don't really need a lot of meat in your diet. It is mostly a luxury item, as any of four billion people in developing countries could tell you. _________________ Just another tofu-munching bike-riding Rambo(/Rambette)
Joined: Oct 15, 2005 Posts: 1642 Location: Portland, Oregon
Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Urban Farming Revolution! :D
Urban farming will be the wave of the future. Already it is taking off in Portland- along with rainwater catchment, grey water, peermaculture and inner city farmer's markets carpeting the neighborhoods.
Take a look at this article on a guy who has created a CSA (Community Supported Ag) "Farm" out of a bunch of urban backyards and sells shares from his harvests. He gets to his "farms" and to sell shares of his produce all by bike. Welcome to the new world. I like it a lot.
Urban farmers need to use leaf, grass and food waste to make compost, include lots of perennials, and we need to convince city planners to plant fruit and nut trees everywhere and start developing systems for building up ferilizer from animal and human sources...
Close the loop as they say...
Tear up the lawn baby...time to plant some collards...
Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: Urban Farming Revolution! :D
nocar wrote:
If urban gardening can provide fresh veggies, that is wonderful. Certain produce, like grains and dry beans, are easy to transport in comparison to fresh veggies. They keep a long time without refrigeration, they can be packed densely and take rough handling and they contain lots of calories per weight.
That is of course why grains, through history long before industrialised times, have been traded long distances. Grain on sailing ships and river barges could maintain cities of millions of people.
So I believe a system of locally grown fresh veggies and 'dry' foods shipped longer distances is sustainable. You do not have to aim for growing all your calories to make gardening worthwhile.
nocar
Three possible Problems for this very inteligent aproach to feed Big Cities people:
1.- The Eroded and Depleted Lands of countries like Chile that were in the past overexploited for growing wheat for the Gold Fever of California - and also near present by bad agricultural modern practices.
2.- The periodical Transport of Grains and Legums by seasonal Trains and Sail Sheeps and Horses and Oxes' power in the future look very good, being rebuilded IN TIME the above mentioned Soils for to feed city dwellers in the it seems no distant post Peak Oil food crisis.
3.- The possible unpredictable Climate Change with problems to agriculture due to Global Warming.
.......... Looking this afternoon from above the bulildings of my city Santiago de Chile from the window of a high building the principally FLAT ROOFS of the surronding buildings and houses I thinked in ways of possible to solve all three above mentioned problems:
- Rooftop and home and depaved 50% streets' City Agriculture for staples like grains ... (with organic soil from compost from leaves and grass and soil and humanure and under streets' scaved soils).
- And of course also the mentioned growing in Cities' park and streets and homes of Fruit and Nut Trees and Vegetables (using perhaps greenhouse farming for possible heavy continued rain) ... and possible some Animals like cows and fishs for some meat and milk for a good nutritional diet of the city population.
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