Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: The Alternative, Sustainable Society We Must Build
The Australian Green Philosopher and Activist Ted Trainer has I think a great corpus of material for Peak-Oilers' inspiration -- Below a sample ... while still is time:
THE ALTERNATIVE, SUSTAINABLE SOCIETY: THE SIMPLER WAY. By the Australian Green-Philosopher and Activist Ted Trainer
Summary: If the limits to growth analysis of our predicament is correct we have no choice but to undertake radical changes in lifestyles, values, the geography of our settlements and especially change to a different economy.
We must move to The Simpler Way. The required alternative society must involve far lower rates of per capita resource consumption and environmental damage. This must mean materially simpler lifestyles, in highly self-sufficient and cooperative communities, within an economy that is not driven by market forces and profit and that does not grow over time.
The Simpler Way would not involve hardship or giving up modern technology. It would improve the average quality of life.
All the ideas and technologies we need already exist and are in use in many places. There is now a Global Eco-village Movement in which many small groups are developing settlements of the required kind.
More: link
Link to his complete Site: link
Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:26 am Post subject: Re: THE ALTERNATIVE, SUSTAINABLE SOCIETY WE MUST BUILD
Great plans, and undoubtedly the right way. I don't see how to get past human greed, however. The greed of big business that will muster all their resources to keep the status quo, along with the greed of the sheeple who have had their innate greed augmented by business advertising/brainwashing.
Our present path leads to destruction. As individuals, we know that, but as a world society, we don't behave that way. The looming economic and energy crises we face will undoubtedly slow down the machine, but with the greed ethic in place, our struggles will be to replace what we have lost, instead of building a sustainable society.
Whence cometh the brains and good judgement to change this, and make everyone believe in it? _________________ Local fix-it guy..
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13191 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: Re: THE ALTERNATIVE, SUSTAINABLE SOCIETY WE MUST BUILD
patience wrote:
Whence cometh the brains and good judgement to change this, and make everyone believe in it?
Modeling a different way of life so people can see it is possible and desirable.
People tend to believe what they can see. Preaching does little good, in my opinion. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Joined: Aug 14, 2005 Posts: 398 Location: Mississippi Delta
Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: THE ALTERNATIVE, SUSTAINABLE SOCIETY WE MUST BUILD
Ludi wrote:
patience wrote:
Whence cometh the brains and good judgement to change this, and make everyone believe in it?
Modeling a different way of life so people can see it is possible and desirable.
People tend to believe what they can see. Preaching does little good, in my opinion.
I can't tell you how many projects I've seen or been a part of to "model" a better way of life. The cohousing community I once lived in was a destination for regular tours of idealistic people who used to traipse through gawking at our model. I never noticed that the model ever got turned into the real thing, though. The truth to me is that modeling doesn't do a hell of a lot of good unless there are forces in place to impel people to do what they ought to do. Give people a choice, and they will go with the cul-de-sac almost every time.
Garret Hardin talked about "mutual coercion." A lot of people squawked about that, but I haven't heard a better idea... _________________ Sarah Palin: Because what we really need right now is another inexperienced, inarticulate, personable, fundamentalist governor of an oil-dependent state for president.
Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: The Alternative, Sustainable Society We Must Build
While the powerdown and reduction in personal consumption can be achieved on a personal basis, getting this action accepted on a wide scale is an obstacle. The masses are ignorant of the situation. The only way they will change their ways is if they are compelled to do so. How do you compel people to change their ways?
Legislation can work to a small degree. Mandatory recycling and energy efficiency standards help, but don't affect change at the grass roots and individual level. There is no government that will be able to legislate or dictate a powerdown lifestyle for the governed and expect to remain in power.
Education can help. Ad campaigns, changes in government school curriculum, and expansion of Extension Services contribute, but this only benefits those who are willing to voluntarily change their lifestyles.
Economics is that which will have the greatest impact in the shortest time, with the most successful results as it touches nearly every demographic group, in every part of the world, without regards to race, creed, religion, nationality or belief system. Those not affected are such a small sector of the population that it is statistically insignificant, especially since they are probably already well below the radar in terms of consumption patterns.
Economic upheaval is the tool, not of choice, but of necessity. Those willing to change have already have already done so. To bring in the rest of the people, its the only universally common link. While it spells disaster in terms of lifestyle destruction, it is the only way forward. People will involuntarily be left with no other options except to work together to achieve self sufficient local communities. Some of these groups will succeed, others will fail. All the people who do not successfully join and contribute to such a community will find their lifesyles unsustainable and will be further compelled to attempt to gain by force that which they can not produce or will perish.
I may sound a bit doomerish, but I'm just putting forth the facts as I see it. _________________ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--for ever."
-George Orwell, 1984
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13191 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: THE ALTERNATIVE, SUSTAINABLE SOCIETY WE MUST BUILD
green_achers wrote:
The truth to me is that modeling doesn't do a hell of a lot of good unless there are forces in place to impel people to do what they ought to do.
What sort of forces do you suggest?
If there are no models, how will people know what they "ought to do"? _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 4590 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: The Alternative, Sustainable Society We Must Build
The world is chocked full of manifestos to lead us to a sustainable utopia. They all sound kind of similar and I'm not even that interested in reading them at this point. It's good that it's out there but it's largely ignored by those who are in a position to do something with them at the macro level.
You have to understand that our world is largely one of cultural inertia. We run our lives largely on autopilot based on what has come before. So as long as we feel that it ain't broke, we don't fix it. So it requires a clear and present breakdown in the system to show that change is necessary, basically TSHTF style problems, at which point change may be too little too late. _________________ http://doomsteaddiary.blogspot.com/
Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: The Alternative, Sustainable Society We Must Build
I agree 'mos6507' that that is a very but POSSIBLE scenario -- But I also see the other possibility that we still have some time for to "raise the sails" as E.F. Schumacher said, and of to show more widelly throgouth society to were the benign course of the social ship must lead.
So, as Schumacher also say"let's put our hands (more strong) to work".
(BTW I'm preparing a Social Ecology Workshop for September, that also is thought to transform in a TV Green Series for Local Television -- I am very enthusiast with the possible social outcome!
Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: The Alternative, Sustainable Society We Must Build
mos6507 wrote:
The world is chocked full of manifestos to lead us to a sustainable utopia. They all sound kind of similar and I'm not even that interested in reading them at this point. It's good that it's out there but it's largely ignored by those who are in a position to do something with them at the macro level.
You have to understand that our world is largely one of cultural inertia. We run our lives largely on autopilot based on what has come before. So as long as we feel that it ain't broke, we don't fix it. So it requires a clear and present breakdown in the system to show that change is necessary, basically TSHTF style problems, at which point change may be too little too late.
You say that we are on autopilot and that we are doomed due to cultural intertia.
Yet you also don't bother reading any alternative approaches.
The only way we can influence the macro level is by doing the right thing at the micro level. This you have control over. If enough people do this, then we have the possibility of affecting the macro level. If we become cynical, we help no-one. _________________ All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become. - Buddha
Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: The Alternative, Sustainable Society We Must Build
The problem as I see it is that we have to do our best, but also prepare for the worst. We're already working to transform our families lifestyle, but feel it will prove difficult as economic circumstances get worse, and if tshtf it will prove almost impossible for most as people will just grab what they can.
Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: The Alternative, Sustainable Society We Must Build
Ludi wrote:
Piedro, I'm more interested in what YOU are doing to move toward the life you want to live, to be the change you want to see.
Tell us about what you're doing in your own life.
Hi Dear Ludi and Friends:
It was when I left school and left unidimentional university unfinished studies in my country Chile that solitary in these days discovered and followed the evolution of the Green international Thinking and Movement -- that is since 33 years or the year 1975 [I am now 50 years old and these days with the confidence and passion of a 17 years old ] -- and could say that ever have seen the necessity of the two things:
1.- Of "Preaching" that which we strongly feel and think the true about the appropriate humankind place in Nature that encompass her (that is Education). And
2.- Battle for discerning and practicing a practical personal and social economic life that do not hurt by necessity the rest of Nature of which our health and survival depend.
So I investigated and contacted for years solitary in my country (plis; don't have pity ) Greens Thinkers of the World and now see that the Green Movement is mature from like a decade and spread and develop something that thought values and practices that I don't abandon the hope of to reconstruct some day in Earth the Paradise that ever must be existed, saying it with some I supose poetry.
Well; sintetizing my Green posture I see no contradiction in the "back to the land" aproach of some Ecovillagers and that You can be noted my interest and work in Urban, thinking that both are necessary for the goal mentioned above, or of to implement a sustainable human society for the growing florishing or self realization of all living beings ... and that I think we still are in time.
Joined: Oct 18, 2004 Posts: 2130 Location: kiwibush
Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: The Alternative, Sustainable Society We Must Build
IMHO the "Green" movement are part of the problem we face in culturally realigning ourselves away from the cornucopian system of capitalism. The very notion than we can somehow "green" capitalism whilst still residing within it is the equivalent of collectively consigning ourselves to the demise of the boiled frog.
The only real solution to our predicament is a militant one which forces us to adopt altermative modes of living and consuming. A solution that understands the limitations of an otherwise very seductive capitalism, that can marshall sufficient numbers to challenge the system and that has the means in place to ensure that any cultural changes remain in place, if needs be with force, for a sufficiently long enough time to embed themselves within the general rules of life.
In a nutshell, any notion of a green reform of capitalism is simply a token gesture empty of any real conviction. Blood will have to flow on our streets before we pay a sufficient price to halt the inexorable flow towards resource suicide. _________________ Bugger me, I hear oil's runnin out mate!
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