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Peakoil.com :: View topic - A Letter From the Future
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A Letter From the Future

 
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MattSavinar
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 11:08 pm    Post subject: A Letter From the Future Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

I think this should be required reading:

http://www.museletter.com/archive/110.html

I hadn't read it in a few months. Pretty intense stuff.

Matt
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Itch
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Joined: Jun 30, 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 11:21 pm    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Good read. Bringing up the part about old people being blamed is a good point. I think that people with SUVs will be getting some unwelcome guests in the form of burning lead once there are severe fuel problems. But as soon as the rabble force people to stop driving their monstrous cars, the only place to blame would be old people. I can't imagine how much fun old SUV owners will be having in the foreseeable future.
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Pops
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 9:12 am    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Thanks for posting that Matt, I read it a while ago. There certainly are many possible futures.
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ExampleGiven
Tar Sands
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Joined: Jul 06, 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:16 pm    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Conceptually just fine, but in accurate:


Quote:
It turned out that the making of the panels ate up nearly as much power as the panels themselves generated duing their lifetime.



Energy payback is somewhere between 2 and 6 years. Most panels are warranteed for 25 years.

Good Overview
http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_solar_new.html

More Detail
http://www.homepower.com/files/pvpayback.pdf

Good Bibliography of sources/corroboration
http://www.mail-archive.com/ecopath@csf.colorado.edu/msg00961.html
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Leanan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 7:22 am    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

From the first link you posted:

Quote:
Be advised that because the question is so vague, there is a large margin of error for these figures!


Moreover, that's just for the panel. What about the rest of the system - batteries, grid, transmission lines, etc.?

The other study is interesting, but not really applicable to a post-peak world. The energy costs they give all benefit from the economies of scale, and from the global economy. For example, the cost of transporting goods to the factory is not included. We don't produce enough aluminum to meet our needs, and so import it from Russia. That may not be so easy in the post-peak world.

Solar panels are just too complex, I suspect. They may be worth it now, when we have a global economy at our fingertips, but a real solution is going to have to be simpler. Something you can manufacture in your own community, without a huge work force.
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Chicagoan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 10:34 pm    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

They might be able to make them regionally. I would not bet my life on it, but I think there is some hope for solar power being used post-peak.
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MattSavinar
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 11:55 pm    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Guys, guys, guys!!!

The point of Heinberg's letter is not to what degree solar panels will be used in the future!

I think the letter paints a pretty good picture of what to expect in the next 50-100 years.

As every "big shot" in the Peak Oil community seems to agree: the alternatives will help. To what degree may be up for debate. But even in the absolute best case scenario, they can't come close to producing the easy and cheap energy producec by fossil fuels.

Thus the "breakdown" of the global casino to the village flea market is highly likely.

Matt
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ExampleGiven
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:14 pm    Post subject: Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

I was just pointing out that part of the premise was incorrect. The letter exagerates things. This is a discussion .... right ?
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