Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: Jun 20, 2007 Posts: 574 Location: USS Poland
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:41 am Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
Roccland wrote:
Poland's president just painted a target on his forehead. Something like "Rise up against the bear"...or close.
I think very seriously about moving from Poland in next months.
Time to choose survival emigration. If the missles are approved it's time to move out for my own safety. I just don't like to live in the red zone. Not again.
A great part of our gas contracts with Russia will expire in 2009. I think Russian government is going to include some extra costs with the new contract and we may not sign it... Oh, we're on the highway to the abyss, in the fast lane. I hope the 2010 winter will be mild and crops will be good enough without use of fertilizer.
From the realpolitik view, what we should do is just don't act. We may send some help to all sides to care about people, thier health, lives, and property. We should be very sorry and seek a chance to solve the problem satisfying both sides.
It's just stupid to side with the Eagle too much and pee on the Bear.
Balance is what is needed, and caring about our vital interests - something what Germans do very well. But the path we have chosen is more and more dangerous, I think the only way out is to leave Poland.
When you are between hammer and anvil the only way for you to play the game is to keep distance from each of them, not to tell the hammer to hit the anvil. The problem is Russia doesn't have to play with violent acts such as war, they may only raise the prices for the basic commodities for the 'rogue states'. They don't have to sell them.
Anyway, the missles are going to be installed - it's not a shield, it's an offensive weapon, SDI doesn't work. Period. We discussed this during my studies, and many of the academicians were against. They would approve it IF it was part of NATO. It's not.
And in my opinion it can't be a part of NATO - too many members have just completely different interests.
After invasion of Iraq many things changed.
Most for worse, and it created many precedences that we don't have to explain much. Our actions are justified by the same actions. They are self-justified, because 'we are good' and 'they are bad'. Not to mention Kosovo as one of the biggest mistakes on this grand chessboard. To change boarders in Europe you have to have a very good explanation and a strong justification. Other way it's ideologically driven move - very confusing and destabilizing the soft construction of the European balance.
So to understand the process and aknowledge the interest you have to remove the moral standards and ethic values. You have to know what is going on, not who is bad and dirty. _________________ The poor complain; they always do,
But that's just idle chatter.
Our system brings rewards to all,
At least to all who matter.
Joined: May 30, 2008 Posts: 297 Location: On the highway, or the water somewhere!
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:49 am Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
EnergyUnlimited wrote:
I think, for now the conflict will end.
link Russia will keep disputed territories, no doubt here, but further military activities in Georgia proper are going to end for time being.
article wrote:
But a Russian general in the area said Moscow's troops would remain nearby for several days, apparently to remove weaponry and unexploded ordnance.
Oh I hope so... both that it will end, and that the Russians will remove unexploded ordinance, My old unit will get stuck with that job if they don't and they are real busy in East Timor, Iraq, Afghanistan, and other places right now.
I also hope this doesn't mean we will be treated with pages of dissertations from arm chair Generals about how the bear was SCARED off by the impending arrival of G I Joe.
I guess we will know it is really over when our crowd of new Russian posters find other things to spend their time on.
Of course we can now discuss how long it will be until Bps' pipeline is reopened, and how much OIL will be discovered in the area...LOL _________________ Courtesy and Courage, Sincerity and Self-control, Honor and Loyalty...a Code to Live By!
Where is my wooden pitchfork and torch anyway? I may need them for a visit to the castle soon!
Joined: Aug 23, 2004 Posts: 574 Location: New Zealand
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:50 am Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
From Energy Unlimiteds Link:
Quote:
The BBC's Gabriel Gatehouse, inside Gori, says Moscow insists that the purpose of its continuing presence in Georgia proper is to hand over security to the Georgian police and to remove abandoned weapons and ammunition.
Was wondering where I had heard that before:
Quote:
The BBC's Gabriel Gatehouse, inside GoriBahgdad, says MoscowWashington insists that the purpose of its continuing presence in Georgia properIraq is to hand over security to the GeorgianIraqi police and to remove abandoned weapons and ammunitionsearch for WMD.
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:12 am Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
I guess leaving is indeed harder than arriving: Russian troops are amassing in Gori and the city is rocking with explosions and they returned to Topi again also in force. Our journalists in Gori report of villages being burned North of the city and cossacks killing every Georgian male and boy they can find. A bunch of journalists got robbed in Gori aswell, again!
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:32 am Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
TonisD wrote:
I guess leaving is indeed harder than arriving: Russian troops are amassing in Gori and the city is rocking with explosions and they returned to Topi again also in force. Our journalists in Gori report of villages being burned North of the city and cossacks killing every Georgian male and boy they can find. A bunch of journalists got robbed in Gori aswell, again!
Truly a an act of peacekeeping, don't you think?
what sources are you using for your information? your stuff has seemed highly exaggerated from the beginning, so im interested to know.
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
TonisD wrote:
I guess leaving is indeed harder than arriving: Russian troops are amassing in Gori and the city is rocking with explosions and they returned to Topi again also in force.
By recognizing Kosovo West was calling for a trouble, so now they have it.
Quote:
Our journalists in Gori report of villages being burned North of the city and cossacks killing every Georgian male and boy they can find.
As long as your journalists are still alive and can report whatever, it seem that situation is not too bad.
On the other hand there was always trouble with Cossacks through last 500 years, so there is no reason to moan about.
From time to time Russians or Poles or Turks were getting really pissed with them [Cossacks], and this was usually leading to organized genocide of Cossack population.
Heck, during WW II it was Brits who handed down few thousands of Cossack allies to Stalin in some sort of unclear deal and Stalin have ordered to murder all of them. So the party goes on.
Don't worry here. At least several years will pass before you see Cossacks in Estonia.
Quote:
A bunch of journalists got robbed in Gori aswell, again!
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:02 am Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
phaeryen wrote:
stuff has seemed highly exaggerated from the beginning, so im interested to know.
As I said, we have people on the ground across Georgia, with one group of journalists, even our ambassador to Georgia was riding along to get them where they wanted to go.
You obviously don't know the region very well. The sons of the mountains of the Caucasus are hot-blooded and even hotter tempered and always when hostilities broke out, there are countless vichtims on both sides. I am not talking about military casualties, but about civilians as village burning and killing of men and boys is the usual stuff that goes around there.
Even the Russians have now started to actively stop the anarchy and a couple of Ossetian marauders have been shot on site. So, in a somewhat twisted way, they are finally bringing the peace, as the cossacks and Chechen irregulars are soldiers of the kind that you do not want to meet even on a good day.
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
This is a tale of US expansion not Russian aggression
War in the Caucasus is as much the product of an American imperial drive as local conflicts. It's likely to be a taste of things to come
The outcome of six grim days of bloodshed in the Caucasus has triggered an outpouring of the most nauseating hypocrisy from western politicians and their captive media. As talking heads thundered against Russian imperialism and brutal disproportionality, US vice-president Dick Cheney, faithfully echoed by Gordon Brown and David Miliband, declared that "Russian aggression must not go unanswered". George Bush denounced Russia for having "invaded a sovereign neighbouring state" and threatening "a democratic government". Such an action, he insisted, "is unacceptable in the 21st century".
Could these by any chance be the leaders of the same governments that in 2003 invaded and occupied - along with Georgia, as luck would have it - the sovereign state of Iraq on a false pretext at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives? Or even the two governments that blocked a ceasefire in the summer of 2006 as Israel pulverised Lebanon's infrastructure and killed more than a thousand civilians in retaliation for the capture or killing of five soldiers?
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
While Aide Advised McCain, His Firm Lobbied for Georgia
Campaign Dismisses Timing of Phone Call, Contract
Sen. John McCain's top foreign policy adviser prepped his boss for an April 17 phone call with the president of Georgia and then helped the presumptive Republican presidential nominee prepare a strong statement of support for the fledgling republic.
The day of the call, a lobbying firm partly owned by the adviser, Randy Scheunemann, signed a $200,000 contract to continue providing strategic advice to the Georgian government in Washington.
The McCain campaign said Georgia's lobbying contract with Orion Strategies had no bearing on the candidate's decision to speak with President Mikheil Saakashvili and did not influence his statement. "The Embassy of Georgia requested the call," said campaign spokesman Brian Rogers.
But ethics experts have raised concerns about former lobbyists for foreign governments providing advice to presidential candidates about those same countries. "The question is, who is the client? Is the adviser loyal to income from a foreign client, or is he loyal to the candidate he is working for now?" said James Thurber, a lobbying expert at American University. "It's dangerous if you're getting advice from people who are very close to countries on one side or another of a conflict."
At the time of McCain's call, Scheunemann had formally ceased his own lobbying work for Georgia, according to federal disclosure reports. But he was still part of Orion Strategies, which had only two lobbyists, himself and Mike Mitchell.
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
Vladimir Putin's mastery checkmates the West
Russia has been biding its time, but its victory in Georgia has been brutal - and brilliant
The cartoon images have shown Russia as an angry bear, stretching out a claw to maul Georgia. Russia is certainly angry, and, like a beast provoked, has bared its teeth. But it is the wrong stereotype. What the world has seen last week is a brilliant and brutal display of Russia's national game, chess. And Moscow has just declared checkmate.
Chess is a slow game. One has to be ready to ignore provocations, lose a few pawns and turn the hubris of others into their own entrapment. For years there has been rising resentment within Russia. Some of this is inevitable: the loss of empire, a burning sense of grievance and the fear that in the 1990s, amid domestic chaos and economic collapse, Russia's views no longer mattered.
Joined: Apr 09, 2007 Posts: 6376 Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
evgeny wrote:
What the world has seen last week is a brilliant and brutal display of Russia's national game, chess.
Nope.
The world has just seen the revival of 19th century nationalism, where large, strong countries used their military to invade, conquer and loot their weaker neighbors.
There is nothing brilliant about Russia invading a tiny neighboring country to kill and rob and steal....in fact, its about as stupid as you can get.
-------- _________________ "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
A quick tabulation: impact of Georgia conflict:
Quote:
Georgia's NATO bid: With secure borders and political stability as membership requirements, NATO is unlikely to admit Georgia soon.
Saakashvili's position: Georgians have publicly rallied behind him, but grumbled about his failed bid to reclaim S. Ossetia.
Oil and gas: Developers from Central Asia and the Caspian will likely face pressure from Moscow to use Russia instead of the South Caucasus bypass route.
Abkhazia and South Ossetia: Tbilisi wants to reclaim the ethnic breakaway regions, but a Russia-backed referendum based on the Kosovo precedent could make this impossible.
Ukraine: Russia's push into Georgia sends a message of "who's in charge" to those in this key state who wish to integrate with the West.
Russia is "back": Natalya Narochnitskaya of the Russian Institute of Democracy and Cooperation says that Russia "has a renewed national and state will.
Quote:
"If the Russians stop hostilities now, they will have redrawn the whole strategic situation in the Caucasus, to the detriment of the Americans," says Francois Heisbourg, special adviser to the Foundation for Strategic Research in Paris. "No one will invest in Georgia, in oil pipelines, in new ventures there now.... The game is over. In the new version of the Great Game, the Russians can cash in." The scope of the "victory" is substantial: Moscow controls territory and leverage, has incapacitated the Georgian military, denied Tblisi its much-hoped-for NATO status, and put the Georgian leader it despises Mikheil Saakashvili into a tough position.
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
[quote="Plantagenet"]
evgeny wrote:
What the world has seen last week is a brilliant and brutal display of Russia's national game, chess.
Nope.
The world has just seen the revival of 19th century nationalism, where large, strong countries used their military to invade, conquer and loot their weaker neighbors.
There is nothing brilliant about Russia invading a tiny neighboring country to kill and rob and steal....in fact, its about as stupid as you can get.
The world saw that when we invaded Iraq, I dont like what the Russians did but we are no better.
Joined: Apr 09, 2007 Posts: 6376 Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
Quote:
"If the Russians stop hostilities now, they will have redrawn the whole strategic situation in the Caucasus, to the detriment of the Americans," says Francois Heisbourg, special adviser to the Foundation for Strategic Research in Paris. "No one will invest in Georgia, in oil pipelines, in new ventures there now.... The game is over. In the new version of the Great Game, the Russians can cash in."
Actually, the EU will be impacted more then the U.S.
The pipelines in Georgia weren't American....they are owned by EU companies.
The oil in this region isn't going to the US...its going to the EU.
The whole purpose of the pipelines was to give the EU a source of oil that wasn't controlled by Russia.....now that is gone.
And when the Russians cash in, the EU will be the ones paying them.
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
Plantagenet wrote:
The pipelines in Georgia weren't American....they are owned by EU companies.
The oil in this region isn't going to the US...its going to the EU.
A good percentage of the oil flowing from the Caspian region was going to Israel through the BTC pipeline. The Israelis were planning to hook up to the pipeline in oil terminals at Ashkelon and Eilat, and participate in transporting the oil to destinations such as the far east.
Quote:
Jerusalem owns a strong interest in Caspian oil and gas pipelines reach the Turkish terminal port of Ceyhan, rather than the Russian network. Intense negotiations are afoot between Israel Turkey, Georgia, Turkmenistan and Azarbaijan for pipelines to reach Turkey and thence to Israel’s oil terminal at Ashkelon and on to its Red Sea port of Eilat. From there, supertankers can carry the gas and oil to the Far East through the Indian Ocean.
Quote:
Georgian tanks and infantry, aided by Israeli military advisers, captured the capital of breakaway South Ossetia, Tskhinvali, early Friday, Aug. 8, bringing the Georgian-Russian conflict over the province to a military climax.
Last year, the Georgian president commissioned from private Israeli security firms several hundred military advisers, estimated at up to 1,000, to train the Georgian armed forces in commando, air, sea, armored and artillery combat tactics. They also offer instruction on military intelligence and security for the central regime. Tbilisi also purchased weapons, intelligence and electronic warfare systems from Israel.
These advisers were undoubtedly deeply involved in the Georgian army’s preparations to conquer the South Ossetian capital Friday.
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