Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: Sep 25, 2004 Posts: 4723 Location: Boston, MA
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: 2 solar plants of 800 megawatts to be built in Californi
Who says we're going to be shipping this electricity from California to Maine?
About a third of California's electricity comes from natural gas. Solar power could replace some of that, freeing up more natural gas for the rest of the country (or to compensate for a decline in production). _________________ "www.peakoil.com is the Myspace of the Apocalypse."
Joined: Mar 25, 2008 Posts: 890 Location: Alif Lam Mim
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: 2 solar plants of 800 megawatts to be built in Californi
Quote:
(or to compensate for a decline in production).
With all of the big shale plays coming online and the relatively high gas prices, I don't think we'll see much of a decline in production if any.
CA represents about 10% of our country's population, economy and oil demand. So I'm going to guess they represent about 20% of our electricity consumption. Assume they get 33% of their electricity from nat gas and we're looking at their nat gas being responsible for 7% of electricity production. Electricity production is about 3800 billion kWh so 7% of that would be 266 billion kWh. Assuming 8 hours of sunshine in CA (800 MW * 8 hrs average =...), then that's bout 2.33 billion kWh or less than 1% of nat gas demand for electricity. We'll need a lot more of these to compensate for nat gas demand.
Why are these projects favored over just propping solar panels on top of homes in CA? Just more cost-effective to gobble up 12.5 sq miles and centralize the battery systems and maintenance?
Quote:
Who says we're going to be shipping this electricity from California to Maine?
If anybody, I'm guessing Congress. _________________ Riches are not from abundance of worldly goods, but from a contented mind.
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: 2 solar plants of 800 megawatts to be built in Californi
yesplease wrote:
gnm wrote:
This is retarded. Solar PV doesn't lend itself to distributed power. The line losses and transfer inefficiencies all but negate the production. Particularly if you factor in endemic energy to produce the PV's.
Line losses are ~3-4% average in the US. How does that negate the energy production?
When your production to grid distribution efficiency is barely 15% that makes a big difference. And some HV conversions with long runs can exceed 15%. They tried this already with the old Carrizo solar plant way back in the early 80's. Granted efficiency has improved some but I still think this is more about laundering taxpayer dollars into a "green" business then it is about real solutions. CA highly subsidizes PV solar which is why you are not hearing this idea floated anywhere else...
-G
edit - ah here we go - abandoned Carizzo solar plant _________________ I Have and will continue to vote against ANY politician who supports the various bailouts. Curse you for selling out our future for status quo now!
Joined: Mar 25, 2008 Posts: 890 Location: Alif Lam Mim
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: 2 solar plants of 800 megawatts to be built in Californi
Quote:
CA highly subsidizes PV solar which is why you are not hearing this idea floated anywhere else...
Could it also be that they have some of the best Sun for this as well as high density population centers which are located relatively close to prospective plants? _________________ Riches are not from abundance of worldly goods, but from a contented mind.
Joined: Nov 24, 2007 Posts: 140 Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: 2 solar plants of 800 megawatts to be built in Californi
One interesting thing about solar plants that no one has mentioned here is that unlike coal and other plants, they don't have to come online all 'at once'.
So while a coal plant might take 3-4 years to build and you can only fire it up at the end of it, with a solar plant you might be able to start producing some electricity after just 18 months, even if it takes another 3 years for the rest of the plant to be finished.
That's an assumption on my part, of course it's possible that they would be required to wait until it was finished before they could start it up, but I'm guessing that given the opportunity, the engineering and economics would be designed around this sort of staggered start-up. This should help to make solar plants less risky because the company can generate some revenue while it's still in the construction phase to help offset costs.
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: 2 solar plants of 800 megawatts to be built in Californi
Lanthanide wrote:
One interesting thing about solar plants that no one has mentioned here is that unlike coal and other plants, they don't have to come online all 'at once'.
Depends on the type of solar plant. Individual concentrators or PV systems that works, but solar thermal towers are turned on after construction is complete.
One thing that amused me from the article:
Quote:
A megawatt is enough power to run a large Wal-Mart store.
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: 2 solar plants of 800 megawatts to be built in Californi
3aidlillahi wrote:
Why are these projects favored over just propping solar panels on top of homes in CA? Just more cost-effective to gobble up 12.5 sq miles and centralize the battery systems and maintenance?
Requirements. In terms of consumer homes and businesses so far there has been over 800mW installed already, at a ~65:35 business:residential ratio. _________________
Joined: Mar 25, 2008 Posts: 890 Location: Alif Lam Mim
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: 2 solar plants of 800 megawatts to be built in Californi
yesplease wrote:
3aidlillahi wrote:
Why are these projects favored over just propping solar panels on top of homes in CA? Just more cost-effective to gobble up 12.5 sq miles and centralize the battery systems and maintenance?
Requirements. In terms of consumer homes and businesses so far there has been over 800mW installed already, at a ~65:35 business:residential ratio.
Hmm.. I'd assumed the state legislature would be smart enough to include these installations on businesses and homes as part of the requirement. That'd make more sense and wouldn't cost utilities as much.
But I expect too much out our politicians' brains. _________________ Riches are not from abundance of worldly goods, but from a contented mind.
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: 2 solar plants of 800 megawatts to be built in Californi
I think the point was to reduce GHG emissions from electricity generation, just like CARB wants to set Carbon emissions per mile from passenger cars. Ideally, yeah the consumer would adopt more efficient/renewable options themselves, but as long as externalities aren't monetized the state has to step in so that everyone as a whole doesn't end up paying more for "cheaper' forms of energy.
Edit-Actually over 920mW installed that have applied for rebates, and probably more than that overall. _________________
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: 2 solar plants of 800 megawatts to be built in Californi
gnm wrote:
yesplease wrote:
gnm wrote:
This is retarded. Solar PV doesn't lend itself to distributed power. The line losses and transfer inefficiencies all but negate the production. Particularly if you factor in endemic energy to produce the PV's.
Line losses are ~3-4% average in the US. How does that negate the energy production?
When your production to grid distribution efficiency is barely 15% that makes a big difference.
A big difference? A half a percent drop, probably less, due to line losses is a big difference? Efficiency is nice and all, but even at 100% efficiency fossil fuels aren't gonna cut it. We're going to need solar thermal/PV, geothermal, wind, etc... regardless of if their efficiency is lower. While the sun will probably rise for the next billion years, I don't think we'll have plenty of fossil fuels for that long.
gnm wrote:
And some HV conversions with long runs can exceed 15%. They tried this already with the old Carrizo solar plant way back in the early 80's. Granted efficiency has improved some but I still think this is more about laundering taxpayer dollars into a "green" business then it is about real solutions. CA highly subsidizes PV solar which is why you are not hearing this idea floated anywhere else...
The reason why the Carizzo plant was dismantled is in the link you posted...
Quote:
But the price of oil never rose as was predicted, so the solar plant never became competitive with fossil fuel-based energy production (Carrizo sold its electricity to the local utility for between three and four cents a kilowatt-hour, while a minimum price of eight to ten cents a kilowatt-hour would be necessary in order for Carrizo to make a profit)
So... Do you think the price of oil won't rise now? Not that is has to, since CA mandated a 20% renewable mix by 2020 due to externalized costs, but I'm curious why you think a PV installation won't be viable when your example stated it wasn't viable due to low oil prices, something I doubt we'll see any time soon. _________________
Bentonville, Ark. — With the installation of a 390-kilowatt solar power system at its Chino, Calif. Sam's Club, and a 283-kilowatt system at the Honolulu Sam's on Keeaumoku Street, Wal-Mart Stores has completed the first pair of what it said will be about 22 solar electric systems on Wal-Marts, Sam's and distribution centers in California and Hawaii.
The solar power unit at the Chino Sam's Club is expected to achieve savings over current utility rates "as soon as the first day of operation," according to Wal-Mart and the manufacturer, San-Jose, Calif.-based SunPower Corp., from which Wal-Mart is purchasing a total of 4.6 megawatts worth of solar electric systems for seven locations.
_________________ Cogito, ergo non satis bibivi
C'mon man, who're you gonna believe?
Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: Re: 2 solar plants of 800 megawatts to be built in Californi
Starvid wrote:
I'll believe this when the plants are built.
*same here*
Is it my imagination or does it seem cornucopians only list proposed projects and hardly ever anything in production.
There's a thread in the technology forums that is specifically limited to projects under construction.
It's quite possibly the least visited sticky thread on this entire website. _________________ joeltrout Oct-2008: Dow 13,000 in three years
Joined: Nov 06, 2007 Posts: 759 Location: Illinois
Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:29 pm Post subject: Re: 2 solar plants of 800 megawatts to be built in Californi
cube wrote:
Is it my imagination or does it seem cornucopians only list proposed projects and hardly ever anything in production.
A power company(PG&E) has already signed up to purchase the power to comply with the California mandate to produce 20% of it's electricity from renewable sources by 2010. California utilities are scrambling to acquire renewable power to meet the mandate.
Optisolar
cube wrote:
There's a thread in the technology forums that is specifically limited to projects under construction.
It's quite possibly the least visited sticky thread on this entire website.
I assume you are referring to the thread: "Energy Infrastructure Progress Report"? That thread has over 20,000 views. I'd say that is pretty high, especially considering it is less than 50 replies. That's over 400 visits per reply. The housing threads only have about 50 visits per reply. _________________ The oil barrel is half-full.
Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:44 pm Post subject: Re: 2 solar plants of 800 megawatts to be built in Californi
kublikhan wrote:
cube wrote:
There's a thread in the technology forums that is specifically limited to projects under construction.
It's quite possibly the least visited sticky thread on this entire website.
I assume you are referring to the thread: "Energy Infrastructure Progress Report"? That thread has over 20,000 views. I'd say that is pretty high, especially considering it is less than 50 replies. That's over 400 visits per reply. The housing threads only have about 50 visits per reply.
okay fair enough, so the thread gets a lot of views but NOT many replies.
You know what the extreme irony is?
The last person to list a wind power project in that thread was me! _________________ joeltrout Oct-2008: Dow 13,000 in three years
Joined: Mar 26, 2008 Posts: 1424 Location: Seattle
Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:58 pm Post subject: Re: 2 solar plants of 800 megawatts to be built in Californi
Don't forget - in addition to these two, as noted in this thread here, in the Mojave Desert there is a proposed 60 gigawatts of solar projects. Of course they won't all get built, but if even only a quarter or 10% of them get built, we're still talking about a lot of electricity. _________________ Abundance - what a concept!
All times are GMT - 6 Hours Goto page Previous1, 2, 3, 4Next
Page 2 of 4
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
News
Discussions
Resources
Members
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
