Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: May 27, 2007 Posts: 1769 Location: The Post Peak Oil Historian
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:45 pm Post subject: The oxygen crisis
Professor Robert Berner of Yale University has researched oxygen levels in prehistoric times by chemically analysing air bubbles trapped in fossilised tree amber. He suggests that humans breathed a much more oxygen-rich air 10,000 years ago.
Further back, the oxygen levels were even greater. Robert Sloan has listed the percentage of oxygen in samples of dinosaur-era amber as: 28% (130m years ago), 29% (115m years ago), 35% (95m years ago), 33% (88m years ago), 35% (75m years ago), 35% (70m years ago), 35% (68m years ago), 31% (65.2m years ago), and 29% (65m years ago).
Professor Ian Plimer of Adelaide University and Professor Jon Harrison of the University of Arizona concur. Like most other scientists they accept that oxygen levels in the atmosphere in prehistoric times averaged around 30% to 35%, compared to only 21% today – and that the levels are even less in densely populated, polluted city centres and industrial complexes, perhaps only 15 % or lower.
The pace of oxygen loss is likely to have speeded up massively in the last three decades, with the industrialisation of China, India, South Korea and other countries, and as a consequence of the massive worldwide increase in the burning of fossil fuels.
Evidence from prehistoric times indicates that the oxygen content of pristine nature was above the 21% of total volume that it is today. It has decreased in recent times due mainly to the burning of coal in the middle of the last century. Currently the oxygen content of the Earth's atmosphere dips to 19% over impacted areas, and it is down to 12 to 17% over the major cities. At these levels it is difficult for people to get sufficient oxygen to maintain bodily health: it takes a proper intake of oxygen to keep body cells and organs, and the entire immune system, functioning at full efficiency. At the levels we have reached today cancers and other degenerative diseases are likely to develop. And at 6 to 7% life can no longer be sustained.
It's pretty obvious what asthma attacks are, some people's sensitivity to low oxygen / high CO2 levels. _________________ In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell
It riles them to believe that you perceive the webs they weave. - Moody Blues
Joined: Apr 04, 2005 Posts: 473 Location: Seattle, WA
Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:13 am Post subject: Re: The oxygen crisis
Cid_Yama wrote:
Professor Robert Berner of Yale University has researched oxygen levels in prehistoric times by chemically analysing air bubbles trapped in fossilised tree amber. He suggests that humans breathed a much more oxygen-rich air 10,000 years ago.
Further back, the oxygen levels were even greater. Robert Sloan has listed the percentage of oxygen in samples of dinosaur-era amber as: 28% (130m years ago), 29% (115m years ago), 35% (95m years ago), 33% (88m years ago), 35% (75m years ago), 35% (70m years ago), 35% (68m years ago), 31% (65.2m years ago), and 29% (65m years ago). -snip-
Evidence from prehistoric times indicates that the oxygen content of pristine nature was above the 21% of total volume that it is today. It has decreased in recent times due mainly to the burning of coal in the middle of the last century. Currently the oxygen content of the Earth's atmosphere dips to 19% over impacted areas, and it is down to 12 to 17% over the major cities. At these levels it is difficult for people to get sufficient oxygen to maintain bodily health: it takes a proper intake of oxygen to keep body cells and organs, and the entire immune system, functioning at full efficiency. At the levels we have reached today cancers and other degenerative diseases are likely to develop. And at 6 to 7% life can no longer be sustained. link It's pretty obvious what asthma attacks are, some people's sensitivity to low oxygen / high CO2 levels.
I've often wondered about this concept. Whether or not oxygen levels are declining. Question is whether or not its due to human activity or some other issue. If it is, there's no question that population grown would have to end. We'd need to reduce our population on the planet significantly. I wonder just how far down we have to reduce the oxygen level.
Joined: Jun 29, 2008 Posts: 83 Location: San Luis Obispo, CA / San Jose, CA
Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:31 am Post subject: Re: The oxygen crisis
I see no crisis with this. I mean global warming and climate change and high levels of CO2 is obviously aweful, but if Oxygen levels became too low to sustain human life , natural selection/darwinism would take over and the survivors would naturally produce people who needed less and less oxygen... though they might be dummer due to less brain activity lol.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13191 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:58 am Post subject: Re: The oxygen crisis
ReducedToZero wrote:
if Oxygen levels became too low to sustain human life
If oxygen levels become too low to sustain human life, there won't be any more humans. There's no guarantee humans will evolve into something else, they may just go extinct. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:31 am Post subject: Re: The oxygen crisis
If oxygen levels were in the 35% range in prehistoric times, one can project they will get there again after all the fossil fules have been burned off. The main question would be what the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM is of Oygen percentage in the atmosphere for humans to survive.
Lets take a general level of 20% at sea level as currently typical. However, in cities like Beijing it might be less than that, and then if you up in altitude 5000 or 10000 feet, although the percentage of O2 might be 20%, the fact there is perhaps 3/4ths the total amount of oxygen is problmeatic for survival. Work your way up to the Death Zone at around 26000 feet, nobody lives too long, its why climbing Everest or K2 is a kind of dicey idea.
However, Nepalese live generally at an ltitude of 10000 feet, and they get less oxygen then the resident of Beijing does. I suspect that human beings could live with as little as 10% of the atmosphere harboring free O2, at least at sea level pressures.
I do not see Mass Suffocation as a likely scenario for the die off. Maybe we hit Peak Oygen 10000 years ago, but the amount of oxygen free that we have now does OK, and we have not reduced in population due to decreasing levels of free O2 as of yet. When you go up in altitude, the body acclimates to the lower amounts of oxygen available, to an extent. In the Death Zone around 26000 feet, all but the most acclimated human beings cannot survive long without bottled oxygen. It not a very hospitable place to be up there at the top of K2 or Everest.
Polluted Cities with air quality problems hav amore sinificant problem than lack of oxygen, the replacement gases are downright unhealhy. Obsviously anyone with a respiratory system that is sensitive has a lower lifespan possibility in such an evironment, but as mentioned here this just means the environment selects for individuals who can tolerate a lot of crap in what they breath and in a ower amount of useable oxygen.
Worrying about Peak Oxygen is really going off the deep end. We may very well die in large numbers, but the likelihood that its because we suffocate as a species is pretty small. Its not a real good scenario to dwell on.
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 3358 Location: Resiliency Farm
Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:54 am Post subject: Re: The oxygen crisis
ReverseEngineer wrote:
However, Nepalese live generally at an ltitude of 10000 feet, and they get less oxygen then the resident of Beijing does. I suspect that human beings could live with as little as 10% of the atmosphere harboring free O2, at least at sea level pressures. ... Worrying about Peak Oxygen is really going off the deep end. We may very well die in large numbers, but the likelihood that its because we suffocate as a species is pretty small. Its not a real good scenario to dwell on.
Yeah, what he said. _________________ “It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him.”
J.R.R. Tolkien
"The time has come for men to act like men; and for women, well, to act a lot more like men."
-Ma Cur
Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: The oxygen crisis
ReverseEngineer wrote:
"Polluted Cities with air quality problems hav amore sinificant problem than lack of oxygen, the replacement gases are downright unhealhy. Obsviously anyone with a respiratory system that is sensitive has a lower lifespan possibility in such an evironment, but as mentioned here this just means the environment selects for individuals who can tolerate a lot of crap in what they breath and in a ower amount of useable oxygen."
I think this is one of the most important concerns here. Probably a major reason for the very high asthma rates in most cities.
The Nepalese have lived in those mountains for many many generations, enough time to evolve conditioning. Things might change to fast for the rest of us to evolve such resistance to low O2.
Also, remember that we are in a world capitalist system. If people start seeing it as desirable to have higher levels of O2 in their environment, taking O2 out of the atmosphere for this and other uses may become a major industry.
When only the rich can afford not only gasoline, but also breathable air and drinkable water, we will be well on our way to die off. Jack, no doubt, will be very happy about such a scenario.
Joined: Aug 24, 2005 Posts: 442 Location: Costa Geriatrica, Spain
Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: The oxygen crisis
dohboi wrote:
The Nepalese have lived in those mountains for many many generations, enough time to evolve conditioning. Things might change to fast for the rest of us to evolve such resistance to low O2.
Fortunately, you don't have to evolve - a multi-generational process involving differential mortality - the body adapts to low oxygen by producing more haemoglobin in the blood -more red blood cells. The process known as 'aclimatisation' to altitude. Takes a number of weeks to months. link
It's why all Everest climbers walk up to base camp - to give their bodies time to adapt to the low Oxygen levels. Everest climbers could get dropped off at base by helicopter, but then they'd be keeling over in no time flat as soon as they started to exert themselves.. Given adequate time to aclimatise ( and if you're really fit!) , it is possible to climb Everest (29,000 ft) without bottled oxygen. Take somebody straight up to that height from sea level - they'd pass out and die.
Olympic athletes do the same. If the Olympics are to be held in a city at altitude, they train at altitude for several weeks beforehand to pump up the blood. People who live at high altitude also evolve a larger lung capacity in relation to body weight. That takes many thousands of years.
I dont see that falling O2 level in the atmosphere is an immanent problem.
Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: The oxygen crisis
the L.A. Times published a study done for L.A. County back in the eighties (no I don't have a link) measuring lung development for pre-adolescents in order to measure the effects of various levels of pollution.. The results were alarmaing.
The worst area was Long Beach due to the Harbor and the emmisions from ships and tankers. Lung development was less than 50% there. The kids didn't notice because they didn't know any different. Could this be the rise of the Zombie class?
Also areas that are close to the beach (except Long Beach) with the onshore flow have far cleaner air with less particles as well as a higher oxygen density. I guess being a slacker and hanging at the beach has it's benefits!
IMO we'll run out of air to breathe long before we run out of fuel to burn. _________________ For reasons long forgotten two mighty warrior tribes went to war and touched off a blaze which engulfed them all. Without fuel they were nothing. They had built a house of straw. The thundering machine sputtered and stopped.
Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:49 am Post subject: Re: The oxygen crisis
Thanks for your points, skeptic, all points I am well aware of.
But do you really think Nepalese are no better adapted to their enviroment than anyone else would be? I'll have to track down sources on this, but I'm pretty sure Sherpas (spelling?) can go much longer at much higher altitudes without artificial aids than even well-aclimated lowlanders.
(And I assume you meant 'imminent' not 'immanent' since the latter means "existing or remaining within.")
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:59 am Post subject: Re: The oxygen crisis
ludi, what great links. Your going to spoil me if you keep finding exellent articles to support my off-the-cuff, too-lazy-to-do-my-own-research guesses.
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3920 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:51 am Post subject: Re: The oxygen crisis
dohboi wrote:
ludi, what great links. Your going to spoil me if you keep finding exellent articles to support my off-the-cuff, too-lazy-to-do-my-own-research guesses.
Thanks loads. You're the best.
The Sherpa's are not alone, the Inca and their descendents in the high Andes in SA are also very well adapted to lower partial pressure of O2. When the Conquistedores from Spain first arrived they discovered that importing brides from Spain was a bad idea, they could not successfully bare children at high altitude, however marrying the native women who had lived at altitude their entire lives solved the problem nicely, and any women brought from spain as very young girls also were well adapted. _________________ Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust him to look out for himself honestly, It's when you appeal to his Honor or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
Joined: May 27, 2007 Posts: 1769 Location: The Post Peak Oil Historian
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:25 am Post subject: Re: The oxygen crisis
It's amazing how many Lamarckian views of evolution there are here.
Creatures don't evolve to adapt. Giraffes didn't grow longer necks to reach the higher leaves.
The way evolution really works, is that those that can't tolerate the new conditions die. Anyone left are the only ones that breed. Some of their children inherit the trait that allows survival and live, the others die. After a few generations, most everyone born has the trait.
If conditions change too drastically/rapidly, there are not enough individuals with traits allowing survival. Instead of evolution, you get extinction.
Also, the example of the body adapting to higher elevations does not hold water. Higher elevations STRESS the body. Sure, it can tolerate the conditions short term, but studies have shown long term brain degeneration from prolonged and repeated exposure to conditions found at higher elevations. _________________ In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell
It riles them to believe that you perceive the webs they weave. - Moody Blues
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