Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
American charges of Russian aggression ring hollow. Georgia started this fight – Russia finished it. People who start wars don't get to decide how and when they end.
Quote:
When Moscow pulled the Red Army out of Europe, closed its bases in Cuba, dissolved the evil empire, let the Soviet Union break up into 15 states, and sought friendship and alliance with the United States, what did we do?
American carpetbaggers colluded with Muscovite Scalawags to loot the Russian nation. Breaking a pledge to Mikhail Gorbachev, we moved our military alliance into Eastern Europe, then onto Russia's doorstep. Six Warsaw Pact nations and three former republics of the Soviet Union are now NATO members.
Bush, Cheney and McCain have pushed to bring Ukraine and Georgia into NATO. This would require the United States to go to war with Russia over Stalin's birthplace and over the question of who has sovereignty over the Crimean Peninsula and Sebastopol, traditional home of Russia's Black Sea fleet.
When did these become U.S. vital interests, justifying war with Russia?
Quote:
How would we have reacted if Moscow had brought Western Europe into the Warsaw Pact, established bases in Mexico and Panama, put missile defense radars and rockets in Cuba, and joined with China to build pipelines to transfer Mexican and Venezuelan oil to Pacific ports for shipment to Asia? And cut us out? If there were Russian and Chinese advisers training Latin American armies, the way we are in the former Soviet republics, how would we react? Would we look with bemusement on such Russian behavior?
For a decade, some of us have warned about the folly of getting into Russia's space and getting into Russia's face. The chickens of democratic imperialism have now come home to roost – in Tbilisi.
I don't think any of the US ruling oligarchy factions, on either the Democrat or Republican side, wanted the Cold War to truly end. If its not the Neocons bitching for war, it's Kissinger, Brzezinski and all of those warpigs. Having an ideal enemy like Russia is far too useful and profitable to ignore. Otherwise, we would have acted quite differently in our foreign policy toward it.
American policies towards Russia seem to exist only to threaten, provoke and exacerbate suspicion and distrust. When Russia has been weak, we have dominated and humiliated it. When Russia is strong, we demonize it. I don't see how anyone can view the situation any differently within reason. _________________ "May you live in interesting times"
Joined: Apr 09, 2007 Posts: 6376 Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
Carlhole wrote:
American policies towards Russia seem to exist only to threaten, provoke and exacerbate suspicion and distrust. When Russia has been weak, we have dominated and humiliated it. When Russia is strong, we demonize it. I don't see how anyone can view the situation any differently within reason.
Russia can be as strong as it wants to be, but that doesn't give it the right to invade neighboring countries.
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
Plantagenet wrote:
Carlhole wrote:
American policies towards Russia seem to exist only to threaten, provoke and exacerbate suspicion and distrust. When Russia has been weak, we have dominated and humiliated it. When Russia is strong, we demonize it. I don't see how anyone can view the situation any differently within reason.
Russia can be as strong as it wants to be, but that doesn't give it the right to invade neighboring countries.
Oh sure...
As if anyone expects there would be no military response to a boneheaded attack on disputed territory and upon a people, many of whom are Russian citizens.
The only thing Russia has to fear in quelling the violence with its troops is the sound of little weasels like you squeaking uselessly in the background. _________________ "May you live in interesting times"
Joined: Jun 20, 2007 Posts: 574 Location: USS Poland
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
Plantagenet wrote:
Russia can be as strong as it wants to be, but that doesn't give it the right to invade neighboring countries.
Such as Iraq?
In politics power matters, not the "rights" or "moral values" and "ethics". So at least you should say something grateful about republicans and people who brought this endelss war to ME and American taxpayer - like you.
Anyway who cares about you - the "morality", "ethics" and other "rights" are non existent right now on international level, and nobody on any side of conflict may look for any justification of their action. It's just crazy - we try to play the childish game of good and evil, and this is completely pointless.
What is very needed is cold analysis.
And what we see is the policy of encirclement Russia. For almost a decade West has tried to dominate Russia duiring the rule of incompetent alcoholic. The second decade started with election of Putin (it could be anyone who would try a policy of strong and independent Russia, Putin is repleacable).
10 years of misery, especially when the western funds have been alocated in Yeltsin reign, and nobody foresaw blowback. This is silly. Putin has the highest approval rating of all politicians in Russia, moreover - Russians keep his faction in the government.
Who is really for the Kosovo independence should approve on the same moral basis the Russian intervention. Period. Americans bombed Belgrade, and targets in Serbia during war. If you approve this policy - the same moral basis goes for Russian attitude.
It's not the question of rights but of power.
The rules has changed since. After great decade of 90s we enetered new era of decomposing international law.
Two planes in WTC changed too much. Just too much, now it's a war against anyone, anywhere for anything, and it comes to me it's the worst case scenario for anyone anywhere for anything. It's a failure for the West, not only the US. _________________ The poor complain; they always do,
But that's just idle chatter.
Our system brings rewards to all,
At least to all who matter.
Joined: Dec 07, 2005 Posts: 2025 Location: Australia
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
Fredrik wrote:
Micki wrote:
TonisD wrote:
EnergyUnlimited wrote:
And plenty of Mongolians...
Learn your geography There has never been any mongolians here.
Depends also on where your ancestors migrated from. They weren't originally from baltikum you know.
Take the Finns for instance, we came from past the Ural and mixed to some extent with Siberian tribes that were to some extent mongolian / north chinese. Finns also had some interface to the Huns (Think Attila). That is probably why Finnish language is related to Hungarian (Attila spent a lot of time there) and also has some distant relation to Korean and Japanese. A lot of finns also have high cheekbones and a bit slit eyes. Given that Estonian language is very much related to Finnish maybe you also have a mongolian ancestor.
In passing, since I recently happened to read a book about the genetic history of North-East Europeans, I'll point out that there is practically no Mongolic blood in Finns or Estonians. Most Estonians have their roots in East Europe (Russia/Ukraine) in the paleolithic era. Many Finns, and quite a few Estonians too, belong to the N3 genetic haplo group which has its roots in Siberia (< West China < Central Asia < ultimately being from Middle East like all other Europeans), but never exhibited Mongolic race features. Mongol/Tatar invasion didn't reach the North Baltic area, and according to current consensus, Uralic languages have no relation to Turkic/Mongolic languages, much less Korean or Japanese, as supposed in the 19th century in the early days of comparative linguistics.
As for Estonians disliking Russia, they can hardly be blamed for it, knowing their history.
The background of the Finns is still very debatable but certain things suggest there is some level of Mongolian and/or other north/northwest chinese mixing.
1) Facial features
2) Known involvement with Huns which were a broad mix of steppe tribes
3) geographical origin being near where these tribes were (several thousand years ago).
4) Distant language relation to Korean and Japanese.
Please not that my use of the term Mongolian isn't very specific. I am referring in general to asian steppe tribes and the mixing was way before the days of Genghis Kahn.
Interesting article thought how dna spreads.
There is now an estimate that there are 16million people who have Genghis personally as ancestor.
TimesOnline _________________ It's not a bailout, it's a buy-in" - Nancy Pelosi
Pat Buchanan, conservative commentator and author, most recently of Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War, discusses the crisis in Georgia, why he thinks the Russian action on behalf of South Ossetia was justified, comparisons between Russian moves in the Caucasus to interwar Germany and Britain, the stupidity of the war guarantees and new missile defense systems going into Eastern Europe, the limits of American imperial power and the question of whether the administration gave Saakashvili the green light to attack South Ossetia.
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
MadScientist wrote:
extrainfo-We know that the only reason you are here on our forum..a PEAK OIL forum...is to spread russian propoganda about the georgian conflict. We cherish the freedom of speech. So feel free to continue. Just keep in mind- you arent fooling anyone.
Hey mad scientist,
Please don’t show such ignorance, i have not the time to prove how the US/UK/western media is much more biased than you think. you tube: "Orwell rolls in his grave" (for starters) if you don’t believe me.. for fox, YouTube: "Fox News Kills Monsanto Milk Story"
I have been following this conflict from most main media sources including Russia, UK, US. There has been, and still is evidently a lot of things you are not seeing on fox, cnn, bbc whatever you watch in the mainstream.
For example, on RT (Russia Today) they are reporting about the people i.e. civilians, doctors, children who describe what has actually been happening on the ground (human element), many are reporting how the Georgians have been murdering elderly and kids. Although its possible these are isolated cases never assume they are. Why in our news do the reports just explain how Russia may or may not be withdrawing without any other details? YouTube: "georgia 12 fox" Bad reporting no? Genuinely if Russia are misbehaving as badly as its portrayed I would feel hostile, however at this time I don’t know, therefore mad scientist you dont have a clue.
P.S. About me: Im from the UK and have been visiting this site since 2006, i was terrified about the peak oil theory before but now im more concerned that either Global warming will balance out the need for unsustainable consumption in some way or the elite (bankers) who control Bush, Blair, Brown etc etc will trigger an event with the same effect... Hmmm Russia, Turkey, China, Iran, Cuba, Korea VS Neocons, thats a major event to me and could be breaking the tilting point with the current situation...
Joined: Dec 07, 2005 Posts: 2025 Location: Australia
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
wotnip69 wrote:
MadScientist wrote:
extrainfo-We know that the only reason you are here on our forum..a PEAK OIL forum...is to spread russian propoganda about the georgian conflict. We cherish the freedom of speech. So feel free to continue. Just keep in mind- you arent fooling anyone.
Hey mad scientist,Please don’t show such ignorance, i have not the time to prove how the US/UK/western media is much more biased than you think.
you tube: "Orwell rolls in his grave" (for starters)if you don’t believe me.... for fox, YouTube: "Fox News Kills Monsanto Milk Story"
Is that the story on the investigative show where the reportes got sacked for wanting to blow the whistle and then the law didn't protect them from unfair dismissal as it wasn't their own company they were blowing the whistle on?
That was a very good story. Text book example of spineless media bending over for the corporations. I think a link would be valuable.
EDITED: Here is the link. It's not the whole show that I saw but this is very valuable for those who still think media is unbiased.
_________________ It's not a bailout, it's a buy-in" - Nancy Pelosi
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:16 pm Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
Usually, the monolithic US television media is really slick the way it chooses certain facts and ignores others, combining truth with half-truth to create powerful spin that sticks in the mind like a dumb jingle.
But the media has been propagandizing the Russia-Georgia Conflict more brazenly than usual for some reason. Anyone with a modicum of curiosity about the situation can see that the media's strings have been pulled. It's a joke! _________________ "May you live in interesting times"
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:40 am Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
Carlhole wrote:
Usually, the monolithic US television media is really slick the way it chooses certain facts and ignores others, combining truth with half-truth to create powerful spin that sticks in the mind like a dumb jingle.
But the media has been propagandizing the Russia-Georgia Conflict more brazenly than usual for some reason. Anyone with a modicum of curiosity about the situation can see that the media's strings have been pulled. It's a joke!
If you think that the western media is spinning crap and Russia's media is spreading truth, you are somewhat mistaken. The so-called "news channel" or Russia Today would make Goebels and Hitler proud - even their nazi media and propaganda pale in comparison to RT when CNN and Faux news are wannabes when compared to real media that is RT.
So far, "thanks" to RT, we know that Georgian soldiers stabbed children, drove over them with tanks, threw grenades into cellars and drowned people in cellars with water (they brought firetrucks with them?), destroyed Thsingvali and killed 2000 people and performed genocide. And in the end, there are 44 bodies in the city and most of it is still standing when half of Georgia is occupied, untold number of people have been killed in villages in simple attrition killing by irregulars who appear to be totally out of control and Russia is far from honoring the cease-fire agreement.
So, who is spinning crap again?
GORI, Georgia — Russia claimed that it had begun withdrawing its troops from Georgia on Monday, but there was little evidence of it on the ground: Russian soldiers continued digging in to positions along the highway approaching the capital, Tbilisi, showing no sign of pulling back from the severest confrontation between Russia and the West since the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Along one major road, four Russian armored personnel carriers rattled a few miles closer to the capital, then plowed through parked police cars blocking the way as Georgian police officers stood by in helpless dismay.
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:48 am Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
This is off-topic, but since you are interested:
Micki wrote:
The background of the Finns is still very debatable but certain things suggest there is some level of Mongolian and/or other north/northwest chinese mixing.
1) Facial features
Is there any scientific study on this? According to my understanding of genetic history, the spread of the "Mongolic eyes" feature started around 30,000 years ago in South-East Asia and didn't reach Central Asia / Siberia when the carriers of East European haplo groups R1 and N3 were still residing there.
Micki wrote:
2) Known involvement with Huns which were a broad mix of steppe tribes
The Huns and other Turkic-Mongolic nomads interacted with Slavs and other East Europeans (like Hungarians and some other Ugric peoples), but not directly with Estonians and Finns.
Micki wrote:
3) geographical origin being near where these tribes were (several thousand years ago).
As pointed out, the Finno-Ugrian ancestors left the geographic are in question several millennia before the Mongolic peoples came there. It's pretty complicated though, because it's unknown if they can even be classified to that language group - the proto-language may have evolved on the European side.
In fact, around 4-5000 years ago, all of Central Asia all the way to the Altai mountains was populated by Indo-European nomads of the Aryan and Tocharian language groups.
Micki wrote:
4) Distant language relation to Korean and Japanese
...has been effectively refuted by lack of even minimal common vocabulary. Some structural similarities (prenominal qualifiers, agglutinative declination) in Uralic, Turkic, Mongolic, Korean and Japanese are nevertheless fascinating.
TonisD wrote:
If you think that the western media is spinning crap and Russia's media is spreading truth, you are somewhat mistaken.
Evidently, people prefer to point out biases and agendas on the opposite side and underestimate the same on their side. Works both ways. It gets problematic if those critical of US policies (and they do have some solid reasons) start to support Russia, Iran etc. as some kind of unselfish, altruistic actors on the world stage. _________________ "The progress of civilization:
bondage --> spiritual faith --> courage --> liberty --> abundance --> complacency --> apathy --> dependence --> bondage." - Alexander Tyler
Joined: Oct 23, 2004 Posts: 5928 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:55 am Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
Quote:
Russian Troops Seize Georgian Port By GUY CHAZAN 19 Aug 2008 7:40 a.m.
POTI, Georgia -- Russian troops seized control of the economically vital Georgian port of Poti Tuesday morning, a day after Moscow said it had begun pulling its forces out of Georgia.
At about 9 a.m. local time, some 70 Russian peacekeeping forces entered the port grounds on seven armored personnel carriers, according to Georgian government and port officials. They detained 20 Georgian soldiers stationed in the port and confiscated their weapons, then took up positions on the territory of the port, occasionally moving in and out on armored personnel carriers and in Russian army jeeps.
"They're looking for anything that can be construed as military equipment," said Alan Middleton, chief executive of Poti Sea Port Corp. A Journal reporter on the scene saw large numbers of port workers, police and local officials milling around outside the entrance, which has been closed off by Russian troops.
WSJ _________________ It's already over, now it's just a matter of adjusting.
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:04 am Post subject: Re: Russia Georgia Ossetia Alkhazia Ukraine War
TonisD wrote:
If you think that the western media is spinning crap and Russia's media is spreading truth, you are somewhat mistaken. The so-called "news channel" or Russia Today would make Goebels and Hitler proud - even their nazi media and propaganda pale in comparison to RT when CNN and Faux news are wannabes when compared to real media that is RT.
Please explain why 'Hitler' and Goebels would be proud of RT? That’s a very strong statement which also makes comparison with some of the most evil men in history with today’s Russian leaders.
Funny how you are making such comparisons, either;
a) You have evidence to support this statement (sources please).
b) You believe the Russian leaders are similar to Hitler and Goebels and so to infer this just feels right to you. (If this is the case I would guess you watch Fox too much)
c) You have a different agenda?
Frankly I have not done research into the RT and Russian propaganda machine but you sound like a man who knows so if you could save me the time it would be greatly appreciated.
P.S. Be careful on your sources as Pro-Western media is not valid for obvious reasons...
Last edited by wotnip69 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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There has never been any mongolians here.
