Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Klein/Brown's/HHO Gas
Adding neutral plates between the charged plates is the same thing as adding more cells in series. If you add 3 uncharged plates between the anode and cathode with approx 1/8th inch spacing you will achieve the same result as having four cells in series.
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:58 pm Post subject: WATER4GAS?????
Has anybody tried this contraption? A Ball canning jar ,some wire a couple hoses and fittings ?????.......and it creates oxygen and hydrogen,injects it into your intake and increases your power,increases gas milage significantly and reduces emissions.
Sounds perfect?
www.water4gas.com
Joined: Aug 15, 2006 Posts: 282 Location: 'bout 15 miles from EU's eastern border (thankfully on the inside)
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: WATER4GAS?????
SoylentGreen wrote:
Has anybody tried this contraption?
Do you really expect an answer? It's like asking who believes in santa claus or a poll on who actually never heard of entropy. On this site, i think the split is 100-0.
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/Brown's/HHO Gas
SoylentGreen
I have had an on demand hydrogen injection system installed on my car for several months now. But it's nothing like the Water4Gas design. If you have done any real research on the topic, my design was modeled more after the Smack's unit with some improvement ideas I gleed from the open source blogs that I'm a member. I hope you are not thinking of wasting your money on one of those e-books. The same information is free on the many blogs dedicated to hydrogen injection. Also, the information found on these blogs is honest. We are only sharing our experiences and not selling anything. I still can't believe anyone can take the Water4Gas type sites seriously. The tactics they employ and the piss poor design just screems scam to me. They suggest using glass jars to produce a very exposive gas, that's just insane.
They have other test data on their website as well.
It says the results were taken from the onboard computer of the vehicle which obviously got confused by the addition of a substance the computer does not expert to see.
Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas
XJet wrote:
ecirme wrote:
pavelow
Your all crap????
Why so defensive?
Quote:
HHO works no matter to me where the volage comes from or how you measure it.
Why is it that the HHO fanboys refuse to let facts get in the way of their argument.
If you deny the science that says it doesn't work then you challenge the very principles on which so much of our scientific knowledge is based.
This is knowledge that has sent man to the moon, sends probes and robotic rovers to Mars, allows you to talk to anyone, anywhere in the world using your cellphone and will probably save your life if you ever have a serious accident or illness.
But you're prepared to say that despite all the very obvious fact and proven theory that goes into today's technology and despite the fact that it works -- the science community are wrong and *you* with your jamjar of water are *right*.
A little unlikely isn't it?
And nobody has satisfactorily answered my questions in regard to why none of the major automakers are using this technology to give them a *huge* market advantage.
Already sales of SUVs are falling like a lead balloon and people are switching to smaller more fuel-efficient vehicles.
Don't you think that if Ford or Chevy could build an SUV with compact-car fuel-efficiency they would?
If they could do this, they would absolutely *own* the market and make a fortune -- but they don't. Why is that do you think?
Conspiracy with the oil companies?
Then why are Toyota and Honda already building hybrids and why are GM and the rest working hard to catch up?
Does it matter if your 70mpg car obtains that fuel efficiency through electricity or through HHO? Hell no it doesn't -- but it would be a *lot* cheaper for auto-makers to fit an HHO system than to add a bank of batteries, an expensive drive/alternator, regenerative braking and a whole fistful of other hybrid components.
So why aren't they?
Simple...
They've tested the claims of the HHO fanboys and found that they are just hype. It doesn't work. It can't work. The laws of physics prevent it from working.
Quote:
Keep buying your extra gas Dude means nothing to me.
Okay, here's something you can do to *prove* whether it works or not...
Fit a switch in the line to your electrolysis cell so you can turn it off or on while you're on the freeway.
Turn it off and keep driving for a couple of miles on the freeway at a constant speed. Now, without moving your foot on the accelerator, turn the electrolysis cell on.
If (as the HHO fanboys claim) your engine is now going to produce up to 40% more power using the same amount of gasoline, your car should speed up *significantly*.
Does it?
Ask yourself why it doesn't.
Or, you can approach the issue from the other direction.
With your HHO system enabled, drive along at a constant 60mph.
Then (without moving your foot on the gas pedal) turn off the HHO system. As soon as the gas in the system is purged, your car should slow down significantly -- because the engine will be making far less power from the same amount of gas.
Does it?
Ask yourself why it doesn't.
And please be honest in your reporting because if you're not, the only person you'll be fooling is yourself.
I have seen lots of Youtube people going by what the digital millage meter on the vehicle says. But it operates on known quantities and the ECU map. HHO is not on that map and therefore it confuses the gauge.
Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:49 am Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas
XJet wrote:
I think the market has already spoken about the veracity of Hy-Drive's claims. Check out how their stock-price has tanked from a price of $2.50 a share just a year ago to today's pitiful $0.65.
Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Klein/Brown's/HHO Gas
This Youtube video proves that a 40 MPG vehicle requires 262 liters per minute of hydrogen gas at 60 MPH to run on 100 percent hydrogen. A 20 MPG vehicle requires 524 liters per minute.
Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas
solarpoweredlasers wrote:
If you search for hho using negative phrases you'll find the scammers are buying all those words on google and doorwaying people into the scam sites. I don't think it's above them to flood forums with fake positive posts. They're actually way more organized than I would have thought otherwise.
Thanks for enduring the retards... We all know it's tough beating down ignorance with the shining light of science with one hand whilst working covertly for big oil with the other
I myself have seen an enormous amount of scammers buying Google keywords. As to flooding forums, the sellers of these scams are popping up at an incredibly fast rate.
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas
I don't know what the devil is going on, but I have to tell you what happened to me yesterday. First of all, I posted in the last few weeks about my method of using an electronic device that produces FAR more gas than any of the 'wire' in the mason jar technology. I WAS getting between 50 to 70 mpg in my 1972 Porsche 914. I stupidly listed my name and phone number on this forum.
Yesterday, while driving on E 40 going towards Nashville, a tractor (without trailer) was approaching me from behind at a great rate of speed. I moved over to the right hand lane to get out of his way, BUT he swearved over and performed a classic "pit maneauver" (like the police use) but instead of backing off to just slide me off the road, he rammed into the side of my Porsche and gave his truck FULL THROTTLE and was pushing me down the highway for over 20 seconds. He was obviously trying to crush me. Luckily for me, the Porsche 914 is built with a roll cage around the 'people compartment' and it protected me. I am going to give you a link to see the damage. It is a slideshow that will take about 2 minutes to view. the complete download is about 4.3 meg so if you have a dialup it will be a bit slow. Be patience, each picture will rotate in about 6 seconds.
you will see where he first impacted me on the rear drivers side. the marks are clear that his lug nuts were 'sawing' through my fender and cut up my tire. you will also see where his tire was trying to climb OVER the front of the car. I instictively turned the wheel to the right, however, it only caused me to go further in front of him. You will see his tire marks where it crushed my door hinges, then the tire smashes my door against my body. by that time, my car was sideways against the front of his truck. That was when he FLOORED the throttle. I will NEVER forget that sound of the roaring engine and the big word MACK, in my driver side window. He shoved me for a good 20 seconds. I had enough time to say an "act of contrition" (I am catholic) as I thought for sure I was going to be killed. Luckily, my reflexes kicked in and I floored my throttle to spin my back tires and cranked the wheel to the right to cause my car to spin away from the front of the truck. It was successful. He then and ONLY then, hit his brakes, but then floored it again to get away. He did stop .7 miles away and claimed that I attempted to 'pass' him on the right ON THE SHOULDER of the road. think about it, I have a 1972 Classic, vintage, collector's car. Would I really attempt to pass a truck on the right? Would I drive that beautiful car ON THE SHOULDER with the 'sounder' bumps to ruin my car? NOT A CHANCE.
the police got his information and he works for a company that does DRILLING and PIPELINING and they have DEEP partners in BIG OIL.
COINCIDENCE???
Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: Re: Klein/Brown's/HHO Gas
So he tried to kill you, then stopped afterwards to swap insurance cards? And the motivation for killing you is that you claim to have some device, as many others have claimed, that gives you 50-70mpg? If big oil went around killing everyone who claims to have a super mileage device there would be thousands dying every day.
More likely he was high on crack or something. _________________ The shovel with a wheel - The Wovel.
http://wovel.com/
Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Klein/Brown's/HHO Gas
JRP3 wrote:
So he tried to kill you, then stopped afterwards to swap insurance cards? And the motivation for killing you is that you claim to have some device, as many others have claimed, that gives you 50-70mpg? If big oil went around killing everyone who claims to have a super mileage device there would be thousands dying every day.
More likely he was high on crack or something.
Actually, I believe that he was coming back from a long haul and was probably tired and pissed because I passed him a few miles earlier. When I passed him he blew his horn at me. It is possible that he was about to pass a tractor-trailer rig when I went by him. He may have been trying to 'scare' me by pulling into my lane close to me but then actually hit me, causing me to spin into the front of his vehicle. ROAD RAGE, conspiracy, whatever. He needs to be removed from the roads. That kind of temper is dangerous.
On the "claim" about the mileage. My porsche will be rebuilt and if there is still a doubt about the performance and mileage "claims" then I will make a deal with you. Once I have back together again, you come out here. We will fill the gas tank and drive around 100 miles WITHOUT the HHO system running. Of course, I will need to reset the carbs and timing to run on straight gas. you should see about 30 - 34 mpg running that way. Then we reconnect the HHO system and I will retune the carbs and timing and we will refill again and drive around 100 miles again to see the mileage at that point. As some say that the mileage actually gets worse when running HHO then the mileage should go down. But heres the deal. For every mpg I lose, I will pay $1000. For every mpg I gain you will only have to pay me $100. There you go, 10 to 1 odds. How can you lose? All expenses will be paid by the loser.
Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: Re: Klein/Brown's/HHO Gas
I apologize for my last post. I guess I am still reeling from the near death experience. I would like to explain how I have succeeded in my Porsche. Perhaps it will shed some light of this subject. I apologize if this post is off subject, however, I feel that we have been talking about fuel economy.
First, let me say that it is impossible with present day techniques to ever power a car off of HHO. In an earlier post someone mentioned that it would take hundreds of liters per minute. He is absolutely right. Yes, you could build a system that could produce that much, however, the amount of energy you would have to put in would greatly exceed what you would get back. But that is NOT where the fuel economy boost comes from. Please read this explanation and see if this makes sense.
Keep in mind that a gallon of gasoline when burned at the correct fuel/air mixture should yield about 126,000 btus of heat energy. Most of us rate our vehicles in horsepower.
One horsepower is the amount of energy needed to lift 33,000 pounds one foot in one minute.
so how many btus of energy is needed to do the same work?
42.4 btus delivered in one minute will lift 33,000 lbs one foot in one minute.
Take a mustang with a coefficient of drag of about .34 and roll it down the highway at 60 mph. It should take only about 6 hp to overcome the drag from wind resistance, mechanical resistance and tire friction, etc. All combined it is referred to as drag. Drag is directly proportional to the square of the velocity.
Once a body is in motion it will continue in the same direction and the same velocity until an outside force can change it. In this case, it is the 'drag' that is slowing it down.
so you only need enough energy to overcome the drag to sustain the 60 mph.
One HP = 42.4 btus per minute
6 x 42.4 = 254.4 btus per minute to sustain 60 mph.
126000 divided by 254.4 = 495.28
therefore you should be able to go 495 minutes at 60 mph. that is a mile a minute or 495 miles. When was the last time you got 495 miles per gallon?
Of course most of the burning of the fossil fuel goes into heating the atmosphere. the reciprocating engine is a very inefficient means of converting heat energy into enertia.
Remember that when the hydrogen burns it turns into water. That water is formed BEFORE the completion of the power stroke. there is a tremendous amount of heat in the chamber. The water absorbs that heat energy and through a process called 'the latent heat of evaporation' it converts the water to steam increasing the volume by 1600 times. not a whole lot, BUT it is converting heat energy back into inertia.
Now, in my Porsche, I have two 2 barrel Weber 40 IDF carbs. Below is an explanation of the operation of the weber carbs and how I managed to inject the HHO gas into the emulsifiers to allow a better breakup of the chains of molecules of gasoline.
The Weber 40 IDF carbs have four 'circuits' listed below.
1. the start circuit - When you first start the car there are two small pistons for each barrell that slide up releasing some raw gasoline into the chamber as a primer to start the car. It only operates when the carb is cold and only after you press the throttle to the floor and slowly release it.
2. the low speed circuit. - different than an idle circuit in a normal carb. In the weber, when idling, the throttle butterflies are fully closed. Slightly below the closed throttle (they are downdraft carbs) is a small low volume jet. Air enters the carbs and runs through an emulsifier that then feeds through a channel down to this low volume jet. MOST of the driving is done through this circuit. As you open the throttle the butterfly valves rotate exposing a progression hole that is slightly above where the closed valve is located. that progression is a larger hole than the low volume jet on the bottom. but it is still feeding through the same circuit. In other words, the air is still going in and emulsifiying the gasoline through that circuit. You can actually cruise at 75 MPH running on the low volume circuit.
3. the accelerator circuit - This is a diaphram type accelerator pump that is cam actuated off of the throttle linkage. It doesn't kick in until about three quarters of full throttle. It squirts in a shot of fuel to assist in the transition over to the full volume or main jet system. This gives you a smooth transition of acceleration all of the way from idle through low speed and into the full throttle action. Smoothest operation of a carb I have ever seen.
4. main jet circuit. - the air is drawn through the main ventura and across an enrichment tube that allows evaporated fuel to 'enrich' the air. The enriched air runs through the narrowing portion of the throat through what they call the 'choke'. Now that is not to be confused with the conventional choke that is above a carb that closes off the air intake. This 'choke' is a narrow sleeve precision cut to increase the velocity of the air intake. In that section it draws from the float chamber through the main emulsifier and main jets to give the maximum power and performance.
These carbs are the best I have ever seen. On my 1969 Mustang mach 1 I had a 428 cobra jet engine. I ran two Holley 850 CFM, dual feed, double pumper four barrell carbs sitting on an Offenhauser aluminum intake manifold. At that time, I thought those carbs were great. I wish I had known about webers back then.
I have the HHO gas going into the low volume emulsifiers. this action causes the tiny atoms of hydrogen to 'break' up the molecular valence bond or chain of molecules of the gasoline. breaking the molecules into smaller pieces is what makes the fuel economy go up. Because it breaks up the chain of molecules, I get more power from the potention energy of the gasoline. It is the more complete burning of the gasoline that I get the better performanc e and savings. It allows me to lean out the low volume circuit. I also have to retard the timing to prevent the pre-ignition or ping caused by the faster ignition of both the HHO and gasoline.
I hope this information helps you understand the operation of the success with the Porsche. In my Jeep Grand cherokee Overland with its' 4.7 liter HO engine, I don't get anywhere near the performance boost like I do with the Porsche. I wish I could.
Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: Re: Klein/Brown's/HHO Gas
I can certainly understand how almost dying could get one stirred up, no need to apologize. While I appreciate the offer of a free trip with a cash bonus all I'd really like to see is a true independent third party test of the system. When someone on the internet claims to be able to double the gas mileage of their vehicle I don't automatically believe their claims.
Your description of the possible mechanism of action of your setup is somewhat reasonable, however I don't think mixing gases together in any manner actually
Quote:
causes the tiny atoms of hydrogen to 'break' up the molecular valence bond or chain of molecules of the gasoline
I'd like to see some credible science to back that statement up. _________________ The shovel with a wheel - The Wovel.
http://wovel.com/
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Because it breaks up the chain of molecules, I get more power from the potention energy of the gasoline. It is the more complete burning of the gasoline that I get the better performanc e and savings. It allows me to lean out the low volume circuit. I also have to retard the timing to prevent the pre-ignition or ping caused by the faster ignition of both the HHO and gasoline.
all I'd really like to see is a true independent third party test of the system. When someone on the internet claims to be able to double the gas mileage of their vehicle I don't automatically believe their claims.
