Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:49 pm Post subject: My algae thread
All time high oil prices and advances in biochemical science have breathed new life into research for producing biodiesel from algae. Whether algae based fuels will be a boon to the transport needs of the future depends on whether technological and commercial challenges can be overcome.
One hudle is finding the right strain. There are more than 100k known strains of microalgae. A Shell research programme involving several universities is searching for a strain with the right combination of high oil content and rapid growth rate. Algae reproduce by dividing their cells. Algae with an 80% oil content divide only once every ten days whreas strains with 30% oil content may divide three times daily. Some researchers hope to genetically modify algae for increased oil production. Researchers have produced a yellow algae that allows light to penetrate deeper into ponds, promoting growth.
Chevron and the US Department of Energy have their own research program to identify and develop high yield strains.
A diesel engine can run on vegetable oil derived from algae but it will gum up the engine over time and the fuel can turn solid at low tempatures. Therefore the oil has to be treated to make it more friendly to the ICE. Using catalysts and adding methanol yields oil than can be blended with conventional diesel.
For years algae has been successfully grown in small amounts for the pharmacutical and health foods industries but has never been cost effective on a large scale.
Algae is successfully grown in storage tanks linked by transparent tubes on support structures. Algae and water are pumped through the pipes to ensure maxium exposure to sunlight and CO2 is piped in to feed the algae. There is little risk of contamination for the algae in this closed system and productivity is high. However the equipments is expensive and several kilometres of tubes are neccesary to produce oil in commercial amounts. Maintenance costs are high. Some estimates say biodiesel from these closed systems could only be competitive if oil prices rose to $800 per barrel.
The alternative method involves pumping water into a man made open air channel to expose algae to sunlight. The raceways at existing open air algae ponds hold as much water as a municipal swimming pool. Open ponds are cheaper than the closed system but not as productive because sunlight only reaches algae near the surface, water tempature is harder to control, and the risk of contamination is much greater.
The large amounts of water required for both systems is another challenge. According to Ian Archibald, a Scientist with Shell Global Solutions, a commercial algae biodiesel plant would have to be at least 1,000 hectares, pumping about 1 million cubic metres of of salt water a day. A very high intensity agricultural system as the algae holding water would have to be refreshed each day and taken out of light to kill any predatory microorganizms or weeds.
Also algae are to small to collect by straining the water. Some solutions such as adding chemicals to make algae stick together are used at commercial plants that grow algae in small quanities for the pharmacutical and health food industries but are expensive when used in a large scale operation.
Shell and HR Biopetroleum have formed a joint venture company, Cellana, to build a pilot plant in Hawaii to grow non modified marine algae in open air ponds in small quanities for the production of biodiesel. www.cellana.com
Ok this thread contains just about everything i know about algae. If anyone has anything to add please do.
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:29 pm Post subject: Re: My algae thread
TWO CornuCrap postings in one day VG? Wow, you've outdone yourself. _________________ Massive Human Dieoff must occur as a result of Peak Oil. Many more than half will die. It will occur everywhere, including where you live. If you fail to recognize this, then your odds of living move toward the "going to die" group.
Joined: Jun 09, 2008 Posts: 48 Location: Philippines
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:12 am Post subject: Re: My algae thread
Cashmere is a much bigger authority on biofules and algae than all the people working in the business and investing big money in it put together, plus he's just a really really really really smart guy, so I have to support him on this matter.
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:43 am Post subject: Re: My algae thread
Vampyregirl.
You should read "A look back at the U.S. Department of Energy's Aquatic Species Program: Biodiesel from Algae" Close-Out Report
NREL/TP-580-24190
It covers twenty years of taxpayer funded research that concluded that algae to diesel was not viable with crude prices below $80.00/barrel. you can also see that a lot of what went on was academic infighting and career jockeying. Lots of room for improvement and much work left to do on the refining and water recycling part of the problem.
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6625 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: Re: My algae thread
Thanks for the nice educational summary, Vampyre.
I truly see the algae alternative as a dead end. Scaleability and costs are big and probably unsurmountable problems, as you've noted. Also, in a time of growing water and related environmental problems, it won't make sense to turn to an option that is so incredibly water intensive and potentially environmentally harmful.
I continue to believe that the only rational solution to our problems is to grow backwards, that is, to downsize and power down. Unfortunately this one true solution seems opposed to everything that makes our race what it is. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:53 am Post subject: Re: My algae thread
Cashmere wrote:
TWO CornuCrap postings in one day VG? Wow, you've outdone yourself.
i'm grateful to know about transition technologies, such as Algae-sourced biofuels. i call them transition technologies because they might help us get through Energy Transition, the transition away from fossil fuels.
admittedly, my vision is not the best. i don't recall anywhere in the article where it said, "this is a panacea".
please keep the articles coming, vampyreGirl ! _________________ http://www.LASIK-Flap.com/ ~ Health Warning about LASIK Eye Surgery
He was one of the guys cranking out code. About as technically difficult as laying highway asphalt for most of the time the sample codes were being mapped.
"Discoverer". What a horrible choice of words.
Don't let VampeyGirl fool you folks. She's got some weird agenda that she won't make clear.
Her posts are almost all CornuCrap posts like - "Why Hydrogen will be the next Gasoline," or "Maggots in Brazil to be used as Liquid Fuel."
Algae's no answer.
It's over already, and pond scum is not going to make a twit of difference.
There is no "transition". We're about to enter 8% decline a year.
So that's going to be about 7 million barrels a day of crude in the first year of decline.
Algae, like all other biofuels, is a distraction.
You've been distracted.
But that's VampGirl's intent. So she's won this one. _________________ Massive Human Dieoff must occur as a result of Peak Oil. Many more than half will die. It will occur everywhere, including where you live. If you fail to recognize this, then your odds of living move toward the "going to die" group.
Joined: Aug 30, 2005 Posts: 277 Location: Second Vermont Republic
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: Re: My algae thread
Dont_Panic wrote:
Cashmere is a much bigger authority on biofules and algae than all the people working in the business and investing big money in it put together, plus he's just a really really really really smart guy, so I have to support him on this matter.
Just put him on ignore. It gives a nice feeling of satisfaction to see his blank post inserted there, know he's added yet another inane comment, and know too, that you'll never have to kill any brain cells by reading it.
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:10 am Post subject: Re: My algae thread
[quote="Heineken"]I truly see the algae alternative as a dead end. Scaleability and costs are big and probably unsurmountable problems, as you've noted. Also, in a time of growing water and related environmental problems, it won't make sense to turn to an option that is so incredibly water intensive and potentially environmentally harmful.[quote]
What is it about growing algae in water you feel consumes or degrades the water? Keep in mind that many of the algae strains studied to date are salt or brackish water species and algae have been succesfully used to remove pollutants from human sewage
Quote:
I continue to believe that the only rational solution to our problems is to grow backwards, that is, to downsize and power down. Unfortunately this one true solution seems opposed to everything that makes our race what it is.
Before I join the ranks of those about to be downsized, died off , powered down, or have my life "Returned to a simpler less energy intensive pathway" I think I shall explore all possible alternatives and only discard them when they are proven to be unproductive. Just call it a little quirk of mine.
Joined: Apr 09, 2007 Posts: 6376 Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:31 am Post subject: Re: My algae thread
vtsnowedin wrote:
Before I join the ranks of those about to be downsized, died off , powered down, or have my life "Returned to a simpler less energy intensive pathway" I think I shall explore all possible alternatives and only discard them when they are proven to be unproductive. Just call it a little quirk of mine.
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6625 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: Re: My algae thread
[quote="vtsnowedin"][quote="Heineken"]I truly see the algae alternative as a dead end. Scaleability and costs are big and probably unsurmountable problems, as you've noted. Also, in a time of growing water and related environmental problems, it won't make sense to turn to an option that is so incredibly water intensive and potentially environmentally harmful.
Quote:
What is it about growing algae in water you feel consumes or degrades the water? Keep in mind that many of the algae strains studied to date are salt or brackish water species and algae have been succesfully used to remove pollutants from human sewage
Quote:
I continue to believe that the only rational solution to our problems is to grow backwards, that is, to downsize and power down. Unfortunately this one true solution seems opposed to everything that makes our race what it is.
Before I join the ranks of those about to be downsized, died off , powered down, or have my life "Returned to a simpler less energy intensive pathway" I think I shall explore all possible alternatives and only discard them when they are proven to be unproductive. Just call it a little quirk of mine.
Perhaps the only economically rational way of growing algae for energy would be in big open ponds. The water for these ponds would have to come from somewhere, and enormous amounts would be lost through evaporation.
I don't know enough about the subject to be able to say whether saltwater or brackish water could be used in these ponds. If so, that would seem to obviate much of the water problem. But most of the algae energy plants would have to be located on coastlines, creating extra transportation requirements.
We're not talking about downsizing you. We're talking about downsizing your environmental footprint. If you're uncomfortable with that notion, so be it.
If you die off prematurely it will because there were too many people with your feelings on this matter, precluding real progress. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: Re: My algae thread
Heineken wrote:
Perhaps the only economically rational way of growing algae for energy would be in big open ponds. The water for these ponds would have to come from somewhere, and enormous amounts would be lost through evaporation.
i don't know... we have a few great lakes we could use.
just fill them up w/algae; screw the fish--i need fuel, darn it.
in all seriousness, if we could get some sort of dual or multi use out of the algae such as filtering human sewage and fuel, or providing a positive benefit to the fisheries and fuel--that sort of thing--then it might be a workable idea.
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: Re: My algae thread
Heineken;
I quess you have to define what you mean by real progress. To me producing a diesel equivalant liquid fuel from sunlight in a way that is sutainable and carbon neutral would be a step forward from extracting and burning fossil fuels.
They studied the brackish and salt water species hoping to use supplies in the southwest that are too salty for any other use thereby combining water supply with abundant sunshine. Evaporation is a problem along with volunteer species taking over the ponds so inclosed photo- bioreactors or at least covered ponds will probably win out in the end. Growing algae isnt the problem, just turn off your pool filter for a week and you will have a nice crop going. The problem is separating the finished lipids(veg. oil) from the rest of the algae and water in a way that is cheaper than the value of the oil. Some claims on progress on that line but I see no proof as yet.
If I could put up an acre of green house and produce even 5000 gallons per year of a crop I could sell for a dollar more than my cost per gallon I'd start digging tomorrow.
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