Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: Record Ice Loss in Arctic 2008
This is all astounding and overwhelming at the same time. Right now I am sitting in the middle of a tropical storm that actually got stronger as it moved over land! The NHS is baffled to be sure. Sometimes I feel like I am screaming into a gale force wind and no one hears me.
As I read this chart. the total sea ice cap area loss this year (from the winter peak to now) is the same as the total sea ice cap area loss last year (peak to minimum).
So if the last Arctic winter had not restored more sea ice cap area than normal, we would now be at or below last years sea ice cap area record minimum.
Bottom line, the ice cap is melting and a larger minimum this year than last year is no sign that GW has gone away as I'm sure many will claim.
Joined: May 27, 2007 Posts: 1769 Location: The Post Peak Oil Historian
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:15 am Post subject: Re: Record Ice Loss in Arctic 2008
I notice the Parry channel is now ice free. And you know how the permanent Ice cap was attached to the North shore of Ellsmere Island? Not anymore. That is where the fracturing was seen early in the season and is now open water. _________________ In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell
It riles them to believe that you perceive the webs they weave. - Moody Blues
Joined: Aug 24, 2005 Posts: 442 Location: Costa Geriatrica, Spain
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Record Ice Loss in Arctic 2008
Tanada wrote:
What will it take to wake people up to these kind of changes inour long term ice cover?
When it starts to effect the number of dollars/pounds/Yuan people have in their pockets to spend at Wal-Mart and Taco Bell. Then they will start to complain to their Congress critter/MP/Party boss that 'Something needs to be done about it'
Tanada wrote:
Does the Arctic have to be ice free and Greenland all melted or what?
"Where's Greenland? Is that a theme park in Florida?"
Joined: Aug 26, 2005 Posts: 1009 Location: "Mad as Hell !"
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: Re: Record Ice Loss in Arctic 2008
skeptik wrote:
"Where's Greenland? Is that a theme park in Florida?"
Good point, because I believe Greenland is becoming what Eric The Red had always hoped it would be... GREEN! _________________ The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3920 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject: Re: Record Ice Loss in Arctic 2008
Lore wrote:
skeptik wrote:
"Where's Greenland? Is that a theme park in Florida?"
Good point, because I believe Greenland is becoming what Eric The Red had always hoped it would be... GREEN!
Actually in Eriks day it was pretty green along the coastal plains and fruit trees grew not too far from the shore. _________________ Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust him to look out for himself honestly, It's when you appeal to his Honor or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
Joined: Aug 26, 2005 Posts: 1009 Location: "Mad as Hell !"
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: Record Ice Loss in Arctic 2008
Tanada wrote:
Lore wrote:
skeptik wrote:
"Where's Greenland? Is that a theme park in Florida?"
Good point, because I believe Greenland is becoming what Eric The Red had always hoped it would be... GREEN!
Actually in Eriks day it was pretty green along the coastal plains and fruit trees grew not too far from the shore.
Except that the only evidence we have of such is from Erik's Sagas. Nothing was put down in writing at that time. For the most part, as historians and paleoclimatologists would tell us, it was a brutish and cold existence. Greenland was never all that Green. _________________ The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:53 pm Post subject: Re: Record Ice Loss in Arctic 2008
I suspect "Greenland" was a clever con / marketing job to get more to join him. From what I have read, they either died or abandoned "Greenland" to the ice and cold.
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3920 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: Record Ice Loss in Arctic 2008
GregWatson wrote:
I suspect "Greenland" was a clever con / marketing job to get more to join him. From what I have read, they either died or abandoned "Greenland" to the ice and cold.
Not so, we do have historical maps which have only in the last 20 years or so proven to be accurate as fiords melted back out of the ice.
Life might not have been as I would have chosen to live, but it was not very different from Norway or Iceland in 1000 AD Greenland. _________________ Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust him to look out for himself honestly, It's when you appeal to his Honor or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
"In this context, about 982, Erik sailed to a somewhat mysterious and little-known land. He rounded the southern tip of the island (later known as Cape Farewell) and sailed up the western coast. He eventually reached a part of the coast that, for the most part, seemed ice-free and consequently had conditions—similar to those of Iceland—that promised growth and future prosperity.
According to the Saga of Erik the Red, he spent his three years of exile exploring this land. He named this land "Greenland" because he wanted to attract other people to it. The first winter he spent on the island of Eiriksey, the second winter he passed in Eiriksholmar (close to Hvarfsgnipa). In the final summer he explored as far north as Snaefell and in to Hrafnsfjord.
When Erik returned to Iceland after his term of banishment had expired, he brought with him stories of "Greenland". Erik purposely gave the land a more appealing name than "Iceland" in order to lure potential settlers. He explained, "people would be attracted to go there if it had a favorable name".
Ultimately, though, he did this to gain favor among people, as he knew that the success of any settlement in Greenland would need the support of as many people as possible. His salesmanship proved successful, as many people (especially "those Vikings living on poor land in Iceland" and those that had suffered a "recent famine") became convinced that Greenland held great opportunity."
Greg
Joined: Aug 26, 2005 Posts: 1009 Location: "Mad as Hell !"
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:48 pm Post subject: Re: Record Ice Loss in Arctic 2008
Greenland's ice cap is hundreds of thousands of years old and covers 80% of the island, not much different then a thousand years ago. _________________ The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3920 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Record Ice Loss in Arctic 2008
Quote:
For the first century or so of their Greenland colonization, the Vikings and their descendants enjoyed a reasonably prosperous and pleasant life there. Greenland's climate c. 1000 A.D. was in an extraordinarily warm phase, and the name Eric chose for his new land may not have been quite the real-estate promoter's con-job as has been assumed. Even 350 years later, after a general global cooling had altered Greenland's climate for the worse, Ivar Bardson wrote that " On the mountains and lower down grow the best of fruits, as big as apples and good to eat. There also grows the best wheat that exists." Life in Greenland was hardly the rough outpost existence we might expect....
However by 1200, climatic change allowed the arctic ice pack to creep farther southward, making navigation in Greenland waters increasingly hazardous -- even in summer. Ships came now only sporadically, and some years none called at all. In 1261, the Greenlanders felt obliged to accept union with Norway and subjection to the Norwegian crown, in return for which two ships would be sent per year. This effectively shut the Hansa markets off from Greenland trade, and sometimes even the promised Norwegian vessels didn't make it through the ice. The colonies' decline accelerated.
The preliminary conclusion from the data collected in the field work is that presently the small ice caps at high latitudes in Greenland are retracting to locations where they were at 1000 years ago. The presence of subfossil vegetation was found within 280 vertical meters of ice cap summit and where comparable modern assemblages do not exist. The implication seems to be that there were warmer periods in these areas prior to today, warm enough for plant growth.
According to the study, the organic material in Liverpool Land radiocarbon dates from 400 to 1015 AD. It is interesting to note that the Vikings settled in Greenland around 974 AD and the study indicates that ice cap expansion began around 1015 AD.
Here's a quote from Jared Diamond's Collapse (book), page 219:
"Between A.D. 980 and 1300, ice cores tell us that the climate in Greenland was relatively mild, simiar to Greenland's weather today or even slightly warmer. Those mild centuries are termed the Medieval Warm Period. Thus, the Norse reached Greenland during a period good for growing hay and pasturing animals... Around 1300, though, the climate in the North Atlantic began to get cooler and more variable from year to year, ushering in a cold period termed the Little Ice Age that lasted into the 1800s. By around 1420, the Little Ice Age was in full swing, and the increased summer drift ice between Greenland, Iceland, and Norway ended ship communication between the Greenland Norse and the outside world."
Quote:
The Greenland ice sheet has experienced conditions as warm as those today in the past. Lowell et al. (2007)10 found organic remains in eastern Greenland that had just been exposed by melting ice, and dated these remains at between A.D. 800 to 1014. Thus, this portion of Greenland was ice-free about 1000 years ago, and temperatures were presumably similar to today's. Erik the Red took advantage of this warm period to establish the first Norse settlements in Greenland around 950 A.D. However, the climate cooled after 1200 A.D., and the Norse settlements disappeared by 1550.
10 Lowell, et al., 2007, "Organic Remains from the Istorvet Ice Cap, Liverpool Land, East Greenland: A Record of Late Holocene Climate Change,", Eos Trans. AGU, 88(52), Fall Meet. Suppl., Abstract C13A-04.
Quote:
AB: Radiocarbon dates of emergent organic remains along the western margin of Istorvet ice cap (70.8°N, 22.2°W) indicate a time when the ice cap was smaller than at present. This ice cap, similar to others in east Greenland, exhibits "historic" moraines ~1-2 km in front of the presently retreating ice margins. At Istorvet, ice margin retreat has exposed a thin (~8 cm) organic horizon and in situ plant remains in bedrock cracks lie less than 10 m away from the present ice margin (453 m asl in 2006). Clusters of multi-species vegetation also were found on two nuntaks (to 719 m asl) located ~3 km from the historic drift limit. All organic remains were located in protected bedrock lees. On the west side of the ice-cap, vegetation is sparse but present at elevations near the ice margin. Both the ice cap geometry and the presence of overrun organic remains indicate past temperatures at least as warm as those at present. At Istorvet plant remains yielded 12 number of radiocarbon dates. These ages, when converted to calendar years, range from A.D. 400 to 1014, with the largest concentration from A.D. 800 to 1014. This work hones the conclusion of Funder (1978) who reported general climate deterioration since 800 BC. Moreover, it indicates warm conditons at this latitude at the time of Norse colonization of Greenland.
Only use wikipedia when you are in a hurry, go to source documents whenever you can to eliminate bias and interpretation of data. _________________ Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust him to look out for himself honestly, It's when you appeal to his Honor or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
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