Take out a loan for your solar panels...

Roccland · Peak Oil Prophet Joined: Jun 16, 2007 Posts: 1696

And Arizona Public Service heads the way for home "debtors" to get...well ...more in debt...
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Tyler_JC

I actually think this could be a good idea.

I'd need to see what the return on investment would look like but it's a promising sign that the utility companies are getting behind it.

Don't be so pessimistic, Rocc. Smile

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kpeavey · Expert Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 1323

strider3700

7.99%? my credit line is lower then that and It wouldn't necessarily be used to purchase something that will have a decent used value should I default on it. This sounds like a rip off.
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joeltrout · Light Sweet Crude Joined: Sep 19, 2007 Posts: 1317

strider3700

if you are only using $35/month then you are probably(depends on the cost/kw) using far less energy then $50,000 in panels will produce. So if you live in a state with good regulations about it then you'd sell the excess back to the grid and payback comes far sooner.

You're also doing your calculation ignoring increases in the cost of energy. Even if your usage never changes I seriously doubt you'll be paying $35/month in 10 years.

I remember reading a homepower article that explained how in the right locations a solar setup could be a better investment then putting cash into the stock market if it gets average returns over 20 years. I'd bet the return is far longer due to interest in the loan but it may not be insane.
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kpeavey · Expert Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 1323

Solar PV has the advantages of off grid electricity, energy independence, low maintenance, and mostly hassle free operation. The only disadvantage is the installation cost. These systems are practical options for those who own a home and have an acceptable location for system placement.

Bootstrapping is possible but there is a trade off in cost. A small system can be set up for about $1000, will run a few lights, a tv, alarm clock, computer, small fridge, charge a cell phone, maybe a small pump, and maybe not all these things at the same time. Stepping up to a larger system is mostly adding more panels and batteries. The bottlenecks in the system are the charge controller and inverter capacities. I suspect a resale market for used controllers and inverters will develop as more people move to PV, but it will always be a small market.

A problem with starting small and expanding is that you may have to run extension cords and remain on the grid until the system is big enough to run the house.

Start with the small system: a couple 100w panels, a couple exide batteries, charge controller, and inverter. Add a couple more panels and a couple more batteries. Expanding past this, the charge controller and inverter will need to be upgraded. Keep them in the shed. With the higher capacity charge controller and inverter, more panels and batteries can be added until again, a capacioty limit is reached. Building a bigger system can still be done with just panels and batteries-there are spare parts in the shed to rig a second complete system. Maybe you can use it in the barn. This is the best I can come up with for starting small and growing a system over time as the money comes in.

Controlling usage is the challenge. For solar PV to be practical, electric consumption patterns need to be reduced. Leaving the lights on is a habit that must be broken. All those gadgets that are always on have to be unplugged- tv, stereo, microwaves, anything with a remote, LED, or transformer. The electric dryer needs to be replaced with a piece of rope. Alternatives must be used for hot water, air conditioning, space heating and the electric stove has to go. Get demand down to a low level, the system needed gets small real fast, along with the price.

A 20 amp system can run a home if it is frugal. This allows 5 amps for all the basics-alarm clock, cell phone, small fridge, a couple of lights, computer, tv/dvd, and leaves enough capacity to operate a single high power device be used at a time. This can be a washing machine, toaster, microwave, coffee machine, skill saw, blender, toaster oven, hot plate or even a small space heater, but you can only use one at a time. Turn on the microwave, you turn off the coffee machine first. It may be inconvenient, but you can use everything that runs on 110 volts.

In my view, a little bit of electricity that is dependable and paid for is better than a lot of electricity that is not.
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patience · Expert Joined: Jan 04, 2008 Posts: 1762

My best reason for going to solar PV is the poor condition of the power grid, and the blackouts we have seen in recent years, like St. Louis when they had a heatwave. Storms took down the grid I think it was, while high 90's temps roasted the city. I don't want to be stuck with no power under bad conditions. Otherwise, the cost of PV is much higher than grid electric (10 cents/KWHR for me). And I expect grid reliablility to get worse, as PO factors make maintenance more costly, let alone the cost of more generating plants and the problems with getting them going.

But I don't see taking out a loan for PV! The payback is a dismal return on your money (security excepted here) even without an added interest rate, as joeltrout said.
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joeltrout · Light Sweet Crude Joined: Sep 19, 2007 Posts: 1317

patience · Expert Joined: Jan 04, 2008 Posts: 1762

joeltrout,

My REMC board member told me to expect our rates to double in 2-3 years. That puts my payback at a bit over 10 years, not counting interest cost. But, that only includes the cost of PARTS, no labor, no design fees, no installation. If those were included the price would go up fast.
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joeltrout · Light Sweet Crude Joined: Sep 19, 2007 Posts: 1317

joeltrout · Light Sweet Crude Joined: Sep 19, 2007 Posts: 1317

Check my math but if I currently pay $35/month and I spend $420/year for electricity.

If my electric bill doubled every two years for 10 years then I would be paying $560/month in year 9 & 10 and I would have paid a total of $26,040 over the 10 years.

joeltrout

WisJim

Hard to do accurate figuring not knowing where your are or what your electrical rate is, but for me, paying 10cents a kilowatt hour plus $8 meter fee plus a couple of bucks taxes etc, a $35/month bill would be
about 250kWhrs or less. My one array of 1.5 kw peak output would cost about $12,000. or so today, maybe a bit more depending on installation details, and produces about 180 kwhrs of electricity a month, so a modest system that might cost $18,000 installed before rebates or tax write offs, could produce 270kw-hrs a month, or more than would cost me $35/month. A system like that should last 25+ years with minimal maintanence--no one really knows how long they will last, I have some 27+ years old still working fine. So, an educated guess says that a $50k PV system could produce close to 3 times what Joeltrout is using-depending on location, etc.

joeltrout · Light Sweet Crude Joined: Sep 19, 2007 Posts: 1317

Ok I am looking at my electric bill.

We used 298kWh last month.

Delivery Charges
Basic Charge: $0.81
Tier 1: 286kWh x $0.06740 $19.28
Tier 2: 12kWh x $0.06740 $0.81
DWR Bond Charge: 298kWh x $0.00477 $1.42

Generation Charges
DWR Energy Summer 69kWh x $0.08614 $5.94
SCE Tier 1: 220kWh x $0.03412 $7.51
SCE Tier 2: 9kWh x $0.06091 $0.55

City Tax: $1.09
State Tax: 298kWh x $0.00022 $0.07

Total Charge: $37.48

So using your figures WisJim then I would probably need a system that would cost around $20,000.

If my electric bill doubled every 2 years it would still take 9 years to break even and I doubt my bill will double every 2 years. It still doesn't seem to make economic sense.

joeltrout